Pt2 Meat, Moderation, and Means: ‘Derekh Eretz’, Dietary Restraint, Household Provisioning, and Economic Prudence (Chullin 84a-b)

This is the second and final part of a two-part series. Part 1 is here; the outline of the series can be found at Part 1.

R’ Yoḥanan - Wealth comes from raising sheep and goats

אמר רבי יוחנן:

הרוצה שיתעשר --

יעסוק בבהמה דקה

R’ Yoḥanan says:

One who wishes to become wealthy --

should engage in raising small domesticated animals¹

Rav Ḥisda - ‘ashterot’ = enrichment of the owner - Deuteronomy 7:13

אמר רב חסדא:

מאי דכתיב (דברים ז,יג) ועשתרות צאנך?

שמעשרות את בעליהן

Rav Ḥisda said:

What is the meaning of that which is written:

“And the flocks [ashterot] of your sheep” (Deuteronomy 7:13)?

It means that sheep enrich [me’ashrot] their owners.

R’ Yoḥanan - Practical health advice: lukewarm water is harmful, (hyperbolically) better to drink from a “witch’s cup”

ואמר רבי יוחנן:

כסא דחרשין

ולא כסא דפושרין

The Talmud cites additional statements by R’ Yoḥanan providing practical advice.

R’ Yoḥanan says:

It is preferable to drink from a cup of witches (חרשין)

and not to drink from a cup of lukewarm (פושרין) water, which is extremely unhealthy.

Boiling or additives neutralize the danger of lukewarm water

1. והני מילי בכלי מתכות

   1. אבל בכלי חרש לית לן בה

2. ובכלי מתכות נמי לא אמרן אלא דלא שדי בהו ציביא

   1. אבל שדי בהו ציביא לית לן בה

3. וכי לא שדי בהו ציביא נמי לא אמרן אלא דלא ציץ

   1. אבל ציץ לית לן בה

The Talmud qualifies his statement:

1. We said this only with regard to lukewarm water in metal vessels,

   1. but in earthenware vessels we have no problem with it.

2. And even in metal vessels, we said that lukewarm water is unhealthy only in a case where one did not cast flavorings (ציביא) into the water,

   1. but if he cast flavorings into the water we have no problem with it.

3. And even if one cast flavorings into the water, we said this only in a case where the water had not been boiled,²

   1. but if the water had been boiled we have no problem with it.

R’ Yoḥanan - (hyperbolically) How to squander an inheritance: linen clothing, glassware, and unsupervised labor

ואמר ר’ יוחנן:

מי שהניח לו אביו מעות ורוצה לאבדן

1. ילבש כלי פשתן

2. וישתמש בכלי זכוכית

3. וישכור פועלים ואל ישב עמהן

And R’ Yoḥanan says:

In the case of one whose father bequeathed him a great deal of money and he seeks to lose it,

1. he should wear linen garments,

2. and should use glass vessels,

3. and should hire laborers and not sit with them to supervise.

Linen = Roman linen; glass = white glass; unsupervised labor = oxen

1. ילבוש כלי פשתן --

   1. בכיתנא רומיתא

2. וישתמש בכלי זכוכית --

   1. בזוגיתא חיורתא

3. וישכור פועלים ואל ישב עמהן --

   1. בתורי, דנפיש פסידייהו

The Talmud elaborates:

1. He should wear linen garments;

   1. this is stated with regard to Roman linen, which becomes tattered quickly.

2. He should use glass vessels;

   1. this is stated with regard to expensive white glass (זוגיתא)

3. And he should hire laborers and not sit with them;

   1. this applies to laborers who work with oxen, whose potential for causing damage is great if they are not supervised, as they will trample the crops.

Rav Avira citing R’ Ami / R’ Asi - Proper household economy: eat and drink less than one’s means, dress within one’s means, but honor wife and children beyond one’s means, trusting in God - Psalms 112:5

דרש רב עוירא

• זימנין אמר לה משמיה דרבי אמי

• וזימנין אמר לה משמיה דרבי אסי

מאי דכתיב (תהלים קיב,ה)

טוב איש חונן ומלוה

יכלכל דבריו במשפט

Rav Avira interpreted the following verse homiletically,

• sometimes he said the interpretation in the name of R’ Ami

• and sometimes he said it in the name of R’ Asi:

What is the meaning of that which is written:

“Good is the man who is gracious and lends,

who orders his affairs with justice” (Psalms 112:5)?

לעולם

1. יאכל אדם וישתה פחות ממה שיש לו

2. וילבש ויתכסה במה שיש לו

3. ויכבד אשתו ובניו יותר ממה שיש לו

It means to teach that a person should always

1. eat and drink less than what is within his means,³

2. and he should dress and cover himself in accordance with his means,

3. and he should honor his wife and children more than what is within his means;

• שהן תלויין

  • בו

• והוא תלוי

  • במי שאמר והיה העולם

• as they are dependent

  • on him

• and he is dependent

  • on the One Who spoke and the world was⁴ created

Appendix 1 - “From here, the Torah taught etiquette (‘derekh eretz’) “: Everyday Norms Derived from Biblical Narrative and Ritual Procedure

The appendix situates this sugya within a broader Talmudic pattern in which derekh eretz is derived from biblical narrative detail and ritual procedure:

1. In Berakhot 61a, the depiction of God bringing Eve to Adam is read as God acting as a shoshbin, yielding a norm of social deference whereby a greater individual assists a lesser one without concern for dignity.

2. In Yoma 75a–b, the temporal framing of manna and meat in the wilderness underwrites norms of scheduled eating, associating meat with evening consumption and structured mealtimes, understood as a civilizing shift from impulsive to ordered behavior.

3. In Beitza 25a, sacrificial procedures are analogized to ordinary butchery, deriving a norm that meat should not be eaten before proper preparation.

R’ Yirmeya ben Elazar - God as Best Man at Adam’s Marriage: Social Deference and Initiative - Genesis 2:22 (Berakhot 61a)

Berakhot.61a.19

R’ Yirmeya ben Elazar reads “and He brought her to the man” as portraying God acting as Adam’s ‘shoshbin’ (essentially equivalent to the groom’s “best man”).

From this is inferred a social norm: a socially greater figure should actively assist a lesser one in ceremonial or supportive roles.

״ויביאה אל האדם״,

אמר רבי ירמיה בן אלעזר:

מלמד ש:

נעשה הקדוש ברוך הוא שושבין לאדם הראשון,

מכאן למדה תורה דרך ארץ:

שיחזור גדול עם קטן בשושבינות,

ואל ירע לו.

With regard to the verse: “And brought her unto the man” (Genesis 2:22),

R’ Yirmeya ben Elazar said:

This verse teaches that

God was Adam the first man’s best man.⁵

From here, the Torah taught derekh eretz:

that it is a desired mode of behavior for a greater individual (גדול) to seek out (יחזור) a lesser individual (קטן) to assist him and serve as his best man.

The greater individual should help the lesser and should not feel badly (ירע) about it, that it might be beneath his dignity.

Meat at Night and Scheduled Eating (Yoma 75a-b)

Yoma.75a.21-75b.1

R’ Yehoshua ben Korḥa - contrasts meat (=quail) and bread (=manna) in the Wilderness: meat was requested improperly and given improperly, while bread was requested properly and given properly - Exodus 16:8

(See footnote).⁶

״ויאמר משה:

בתת ה׳ לכם בערב בשר לאכול

ולחם בבקר לשבוע״,

The verse states: “And Moses said:

This shall be, when YHWH will give you in the evening meat to eat,

and in the morning bread to the full” (Exodus 16:8).

תנא משמיה דרבי יהושע בן קרחה:

• בשר ששאלו שלא כהוגן —

  • ניתן להם שלא כהוגן,

• לחם ששאלו כהוגן —

  • ניתן להם כהוגן.

A tanna taught in the name of R’ Yehoshua ben Korḥa:

• The meat that the Jewish people asked for inappropriately, since they had the manna and did not need meat,

  • was given to them inappropriately (שלא כהוגן),

  • I.e. the quail (שליו) was given in a way that was unpleasant; they were punished afterward (Rabbeinu Elyakim).

• However, bread, which is essential, they asked for appropriately.

  • Therefore, it was given to them appropriately,

  • I.e. the manna was given in the morning, when there was time to prepare it.

From the verse’s temporal framing is derived etiquette: meat is associated with evening consumption, while staple food aligns with daytime order and preparation

מכאן למדה תורה דרך ארץ:

שלא יאכל אדם בשר אלא בלילה.

והאמר אביי:

האי מאן דאית ליה סעודתא —

לא לאכליה אלא ביממא!

כעין יממא קא אמרינן.

The Talmud comments: From here, the Torah taught derekh eretz:

that it is proper to eat meat only at night,

as Moses said to the children of Israel: “This shall be, when YHWH will give you in the evening meat to eat” (Exodus 16:8).

The Talmud asks: But didn’t Abaye say that

someone who has a meal --

should eat it only in the day?⁷

The Talmud answers: We mean to say: Like day.

It is not necessary to eat the food in the daytime, as long as one can see what he eats.

R’ Aḥa bar Ya’akov - this as a civilizing move: Moses instituted fixed mealtimes, shifting Israel from impulsive eating to structured consumption

אמר רב אחא בר יעקב:

• בתחלה

  • היו ישראל דומין כתרנגולים שמנקרין באשפה,

• עד שבא משה

  • וקבע להם זמן סעודה.

R’ Aḥa bar Ya’akov said:

• At the beginning,

  • the Jewish people were like chickens pecking (מנקרין) at the garbage (אשפה);

  • any time there was food they grabbed it and ate it,

• until Moses came

  • and set specific times to eat,

  • as the verse implies. He set mealtimes for them in the morning and in the evening.

Rami bar Abba - Meat preparation Before Consumption (Beitza 25a)

Beitza.25a.12

Rami bar Abba analogizes sacrificial procedure to ordinary meat preparation: Just as the burnt offering requires flaying and cutting before use, so too meat should not be eaten prior to proper preparation.

The norm framed as derekh eretz is restraint: consumption follows process, not impulse.

אמר רמי בר אבא:

הפשט ונתוח בעולה,

והוא הדין לקצבים.

מכאן למדה תורה דרך ארץ:

שלא יאכל אדם בשר קודם הפשט ונתוח.

Rami bar Abba said:

The mitzva of flaying and cutting (הפשט ונתוח) the animal into pieces is mentioned in the Torah with regard to the burnt-offering (עולה),

and the same is true for butchers (קצבים).

That is to say, we learn from the halakhot of the burnt offering that a butcher should first remove the hide and cut the animal into pieces.

From here the Torah taught derekh eretz:

that a person should not eat meat before flaying and cutting the animal into pieces.

Appendix 2 - “From here (‘mi-kan’) that...”: Norms Derived from Biblical Verses

This appendix collects cases where the Talmud derives binding norms directly from biblical narrative phrasing or ritual language, using the formula “from here” (‘mi-kan’). The passages presuppose that descriptive verses can function as normative sources.

These passages treat narrative wording and ritual descriptors as dense carriers of normative meaning, with ‘mi-kan’ marking the transition from text to obligation or ethical structure.

R’ Yehoshua ben Levi - Prayer Space and Physical Presence: one may not sit within 4 cubits of someone praying - I Samuel 1:26 (Berakhot 31b)

Berakhot.31b.19

R’ Yehoshua ben Levi infers from Hannah’s statement to Eli—“I am the woman who stood here with you”—that one may not sit within 4 cubits of someone praying.⁸

״אני האשה הנצבת עמכה בזה״,

אמר רבי יהושע בן לוי:

מכאן שאסור לישב בתוך ארבע אמות של תפלה.

When Hannah came to the Temple with her son Samuel, she told Eli: “My lord, as your soul lives, my lord, I am the woman who stood here with you to pray to YHWH” (I Samuel 1:26).

R’ Yehoshua ben Levi said:

From here the halakha that it is forbidden to sit within four cubits of one who is praying is derived.

As the verse says: “Who stood here with you,” indicating that Eli stood alongside Hannah because she was praying.

R’ Akiva - Blessings Before Consumption - Leviticus 19:24 (Berakhot 35a)

Berakhot.35a.2

A baraita derives from “holy, praises to YHWH” that fruit requires blessing both before and after consumption.

R’ Akiva generalizes this into a prohibition against tasting any food prior to reciting a blessing (framing unblessed food as functionally consecrated).

תנו רבנן:

״קדש הלולים לה׳״,

מלמד ש:

טעונים ברכה לפניהם ולאחריהם.

מכאן אמר רבי עקיבא:

אסור לאדם שיטעום כלום קודם שיברך.

A baraita states in the Sifra:

With regard to saplings, it is stated that in their 4th year their fruit will be: “…sanctified (קדש) for praises before YHWH” (Leviticus 19:24).

This verse teaches that

they require praise of God in the form of a blessing both beforehand and thereafter, as the verse says praises in the plural.

From here, R’ Akiva said:

A person is forbidden to taste anything before he recites a blessing,

as without reciting praise over food, it has the status of a consecrated item (=hekdesh), from which one is forbidden to derive pleasure.

R’ Pineḥas ben Yair - Sexual Thoughts and Nocturnal Emissions - Deuteronomy 23:10–11 (Ketubot 46a)

Ketubot.46a.7

Both Ketubot 46a and Avodah Zarah 20b derive from “you shall guard yourself from every evil thing” that daytime sexual thoughts can lead to nocturnal emission.

״ונשמרת מכל דבר רע״,

מכאן אמר רבי פנחס בן יאיר:

אל יהרהר אדם ביום

ויבא לידי טומאה בלילה.

“Then you shall keep yourself from every evil thing”;

from here R’ Pineḥas ben Yair said:

A person should not think⁹ impure (=sexual) thoughts by day

and thereby come by night to the impurity of an emission.

R’ Pineḥas ben Ya’ir - The Ethical-Ascent sequence - 12 steps: Torah → vigilance → diligence → cleanliness → abstention → purity → piety → humility → fear of sin → holiness → Holy Spirit → resurrection of the dead - Deuteronomy 23:10 (Avodah Zarah 20b)

Avodah_Zarah.20b.9-10

R’ Pineḥas ben Ya’ir expands the same verse into a graded sequence, presents an ordered progression from study to eschatological outcome: Torah → vigilance → diligence → cleanliness → abstention → purity → piety → humility → fear of sin → holiness → Holy Spirit → resurrection of the dead.

תנו רבנן:

״ונשמרת מכל דבר רע״,

שלא יהרהר אדם ביום

ויבוא לידי טומאה בלילה.

§ The Talmud cites another source that interprets the verse cited above.

A baraita states explaining the verse:

“And you shall keep yourself from every evil thing” (Deuteronomy 23:10), which is immediately followed by the verse: “If there be among you any man who is not ritually pure by reason of that which happened to him by night” (Deuteronomy 23:11).

This teaches that a person should not think impure (=sexual) thoughts by day

and thereby come to the impurity of an emission by night.

מכאן אמר רבי פנחס בן יאיר:

1. תורה

   1. מביאה לידי זהירות,

2. זהירות

   1. מביאה לידי זריזות,

3. זריזות

   1. מביאה לידי נקיות,

4. נקיות

   1. מביאה לידי פרישות,

5. פרישות

   1. מביאה לידי טהרה,

6. טהרה

   1. מביאה לידי חסידות,

7. חסידות

   1. מביאה לידי ענוה,

8. ענוה

   1. מביאה לידי יראת חטא,

9. יראת חטא

   1. מביאה לידי קדושה,

10. קדושה

    1. מביאה לידי רוח הקודש,

11. רוח הקודש

    1. מביאה לידי תחיית המתים,

From here R’ Pineḥas ben Ya’ir would say:

1. Torah study

   1. leads to care in the performance of mitzvot.

2. Care (זהירות) in the performance of mitzvot

   1. leads to diligence in their observance.

3. Diligence (זריזות)

   1. leads to cleanliness of the soul.

4. Cleanliness (נקיות) of the soul

   1. leads to abstention from all evil.

5. Abstention (פרישות) from evil

   1. leads to purity and the elimination of all base desires.

6. Purity

   1. leads to piety.

7. Piety¹⁰

   1. leads to humility.

8. Humility

   1. leads to fear of sin.

9. Fear of sin

   1. leads to holiness.

10. Holiness¹¹

    1. leads to the Holy Spirit.

11. The Holy Spirit

    1. leads to the resurrection of the dead

... piety (‘hasidut’) exceeds all stages - Psalms 89:20

וחסידות גדולה מכולן,

שנאמר:

״אז דברת בחזון לחסידיך״.

And piety (חסידות) is greater than all of them,

as it is stated:

“Then You did speak in a vision to Your pious ones” (Psalms 89:20).

1. בהמה דקה - which refers to sheep and goats (“small”), as opposed to cows (“large”).

2. ציץ - tzeyatz.

On this word, see Jastrow (modernized):

צָוַץ

(apocope of צוצו = צפצף); Piel צִיוֵּץ, צִיוֵּוץ, Pilp. צִוְצֵי

to chirp

[…]

And ibid.:

Transferred sense: (of the singing of boiling water) to boil.

• Bava Metzia 29b:23 - אלא דלא צַיֵּיץ - “only when the water has not been steaming” (Arukh מְצַוְּיָין Manuscript Florence: צַוְיַת; Manuscript Rome: 2 מְצַוְּיַת, see צְוֵי I);

• Chullin 84b:2 - צַיֵּיץ Arukh (ed. צַיֵּץ).

3. מה שיש לו - literally: “what he has”.

4. מי שאמר והיה העולם - i.e. God.

5. שושבין.

On this word, see Jastrow (modernized):

שׁוֹשְׁבִין

(= שבשבין; שבב, compare שֵׁיבָבָא, Payne Smith, ‘Thesaurus Syriacus’ 4341)

friend, especially the bridegroom’s friend or best man who offers gifts and is entitled to reciprocation; also the bride’s friend or agent.

• Mishnah Sanhedrin 3:5 - אוהב זה שׁוֹשְׁבִינוֹ - “by ‘friend’ (as disqualified for witness) one’s best man is meant”

• Bava Batra 144b:12 - לימא תנו לי שׁוֹשְׁבִינִי ואשמח עמו - “he may say, get me my best man (in whose name the gifts were sent at my wedding), that I may rejoice with him (but since he is dead, I am under no obligation to reciprocate)”

• Midrash Tanḥuma Korah 8 - לש׳ בתו של מלך וכ׳ - “this is to be compared to the case of the agent of the king’s daughter (who had to guard her interest at the consummation of the marriage, see infra), who kept the testimonials of her virginity in his charge”

• Bamidbar Rabbah 18¹²;

• and frequently.

[Yalkut Shimoni on Torah 729 שושבינו, read: שׁוֹשָׁטוֹ, see שׁוֹשָׁטָה.]

Plural: שׁוֹשְׁבִינִין.

• Tosefta Ketubot 1:4 - ביהודה היו מעמידין שני ש׳ אחד משל וכ׳ - “in Judaea they used to put up two groomsmen (as guards), one appointed by the groom’s, and one by the bride’s family”

• Yerushalmi ibid. 1:25a

• Bavli Ketubot 12a:10;

• and elsewhere.

On the word’s appearance in Bava Batra 144b, see my “Further Experiments in Halachic Talmudic Sugya Layout: Wedding Gift Obligation Rules (Bava Batra 145)“, and see especially my intro there.

6. In Exodus 16:8, the “meat” (בָּשָׂר) refers to quail.

Earlier in the chapter (Exodus 16:13), it explicitly states that quail came up in the evening and covered the camp, while manna was provided in the morning.

Moses’ statement in v. 8 summarizes that pattern: meat in the evening (quail) and bread in the morning (manna), both as responses to the Israelites’ complaints.

7. This statement of Abaye was cited earlier in that extended sugya about eating (in the broader context of the obligation to fast on Yom Kippur), see my “Bread in the Basket, Eyes on the Plate: Talmudic Psychology (Yoma 74b-75a)“, section “Blindness and Satisfaction; Daytime Eating Advice; A Verse Supporting the Value of Sight (Ecclesiastes 6:9); seeing a woman is more enjoyable than actual sex“, where I summarize:

Rav Yosef generalizes from the manna case that blind people feel less satisfied from eating (since seeing the food being eaten is a key factor in satiation).

Abaye applies this idea practically: (formal) meals should (ideally) occur during daylight (so the food can be seen, thus enhancing pleasure and satiety).

R’ Zeira cites Ecclesiastes 6:9--”Better is the seeing of the eyes than the wandering of the desire”--to support this principle.

8. The homiletic inference depends on reading “stood here with you” as Eli’s respectful stance alongside a person engaged in prayer.

9. יהרהר.

This verb is especially used in the sense of sexual thoughts; see Jastrow (modernized), sense #2 of הִרְהֵר:

to be heated, entertain impure thoughts.

• Chullin 37b:6 - לא הִרְהַרְתִּי ביום - “I allowed no impure thoughts to rise in me in day-time”

• and frequently.

10. חסידות - ‘hasidut’.

11. קדושה - ‘kedusha’.