Pt1 Counting Jews and Evaluating Kings: Saul, David, and Leadership in the Book of Samuel (Yoma 22b)

This is the first part of a two-part series. The outline of the series is below.

This sugya opens with a procedural detail from the Temple service and expands into a wide-ranging aggadic and halakhic meditation on counting Jews,¹ leadership, kingship, mercy, sin, lineage, and authority.

It begins with the Temple lottery used to assign priestly tasks. When two priests are equal and neither precedes the other, the appointed official instructs them to “extend your fingers,” and the lottery is conducted by counting fingers rather than counting the priests themselves. A tanna explains that the unusual term hatzbiu means to put out fingers for counting.

The Talmud asks why the priests themselves are not counted directly. The answer is that this practice accords with a teaching of R’ Yitzḥak, who states that it is prohibited to count Jews directly, even for the purpose of fulfilling a mitzvah. As proof, he cites the verse describing Saul’s mustering of Israel: “And he numbered them with bezek” (I Samuel 11:8), understood as counting indirectly via objects rather than people.

Rav Ashi challenges this derivation, arguing that Bezek may simply be a place name, as in “Adoni-bezek” (Judges 1:5), and not a term meaning shards. The Talmud concedes the challenge and instead adduces a different verse: “And Saul summoned the people and numbered them by sheep” (I Samuel 15:4), meaning that Saul counted his soldiers through sheep used as tokens.

The discussion then intensifies the prohibition. R’ Elazar states that anyone who counts Israel violates a negative commandment, citing Hosea 2:1: “The number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured.” Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak adds that one who counts Israel violates two prohibitions, as the verse says both “cannot be measured” and “cannot be counted.”

R’ Shmuel bar Naḥmani, citing R’ Yonatan, highlights a contradiction within that same verse: Israel is described as having a number “like the sand of the sea,” yet also as unmeasurable and uncountable. One resolution distinguishes between conditions: when Israel fulfills God’s will, they are innumerable; when they do not, they are countable like sand. R’ Yehuda HaNasi, citing Abba Yosei ben Dostai, offers an alternative resolution: the verse distinguishes between human counting, which fails, and divine counting, which succeeds.

From Saul’s use of shards and sheep, the sugya turns to leadership and wealth. Rav Nehilai bar Idi, citing Shmuel, states that once a person is appointed leader over the community, he becomes wealthy, inferred from Saul’s transition from inexpensive counting tokens to sheep he could supply himself. The Talmud then interprets the verse “And Saul strove in the valley” (I Samuel 15:5). R’ Mani explains that Saul argued with God over the command to annihilate Amalek, reasoning from the law of the heifer whose neck is broken (eglah arufah): if the Torah demands atonement for a single unknown murder, how could mass killing be justified, especially of animals and children. A divine voice rebukes him with “Do not be overly righteous” (Ecclesiastes 7:16). Later, when Saul orders Doeg to kill the priests of Nob, a divine voice rebukes him again: “Do not be overly wicked” (Ecclesiastes 7:17).

Rav Huna contrasts Saul and David: Saul lost his kingship after a single failure, while David retained his despite two. Saul’s decisive failure is identified as sparing Agag; God’s rejection is stated immediately after that episode, even before the massacre at Nob. David’s two failures are the killing of Uriah and the census that led to a plague. The Bathsheba episode is excluded because David already paid a fourfold punishment through the death of the child, Amnon, Tamar’s violation, and Absalom’s rebellion.

Further statements connect royal judgment to speech and lineage. Rav Yehuda, citing Rav, states that when David divided Mephibosheth’s field with Ziba, a divine voice foretold the future division of the kingdom between Rehoboam and Jeroboam. Rav Huna interprets “Saul was one year old when he began to reign” as meaning that Saul was initially sinless. Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak mockingly suggests an alternative reading, is punished with nightmares, and must formally apologize to “the bones of Saul, king of Israel.”

The sugya then explains why Saul’s dynasty did not endure. Rav Yehuda, citing Shmuel, (counter-intuitively) attributes it to Saul’s flawless lineage. R’ Yoḥanan, citing R’ Shimon ben Yehotzadak, states that communal leaders are appointed only if they possess some ancestral flaw, so they can be humbled if arrogant; David’s compromised ancestry explains the endurance of his dynasty. Finally, Rav Yehuda, citing Rav, says Saul was punished for waiving royal honor at the outset of his reign, linking his silence in the face of insult to the later Ammonite attack. The section concludes with R’ Yoḥanan’s assertion that a Torah scholar who does not avenge insults “like a snake” is not a true Torah scholar (emphasizing the necessity of maintaining the honor of authority and Torah).

I Samuel 15:1–5

I Samuel 15:1–5:

ויאמר שמואל אל שאול:

אתי שלח יהוה למשחך למלך על עמו על ישראל

ועתה שמע לקול דברי יהוה

Samuel said to Saul:

“I am the one YHWH sent to anoint you king over Israel—God’s people.

Therefore, listen to YHWH’s command!

כה אמר יהוה צבאות:

פקדתי את אשר עשה עמלק לישראל

אשר שם לו בדרך

בעלתו ממצרים

“Thus said YHWH of Hosts:

I am exacting the penalty for what Amalek did to Israel,

for the assault he made upon them on the road,

on their way up from Egypt.

עתה לך והכיתה את עמלק

והחרמתם את כל אשר לו

ולא תחמל עליו

והמתה

1. מאיש עד אשה

2. מעלל ועד יונק

3. משור ועד שה

4. מגמל ועד חמור

Now go, attack Amalek,

and proscribe all that belongs to him.

Spare no one,

but kill alike

1. men and women,

2. infants and sucklings,

3. oxen and sheep,

4. camels and donkeys”

וישמע שאול את העם

ויפקדם בטלאים

מאתים אלף רגלי

ועשרת אלפים את איש יהודה

Saul mustered the troops

and enrolled them at Telaim:

200,000 men on foot,

and 10,000 as Judah’s contingent.

ויבא שאול עד עיר עמלק

וירב בנחל

Then Saul advanced as far as the city of Amalek

and lay in wait in the wadi.

Outline

Intro

I Samuel 15:1–5

The Passage

1. Baraita - In the Temple lottery, they count priests’ fingers (rather than counting priests directly)

2. R’ Yitzḥak - It is prohibited to count Jews directly, even for a mitzva (thus the lottery counts fingers instead of people) - I Samuel 11:8

3. Rav Ashi - Challenges R’ Yitzḥak’s derivation: maybe “Bezek” is a place-name , not “shards” - Judges 1:5

4. Alternative proof that Saul counted indirectly: he counted them “by sheep” - I Samuel 15:4

5. R’ Elazar - Counting Israel violates a negative prohibition - Hosea 2:1

6. Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak - Counting Israel violates 2 negative prohibitions - Hosea 2:1

7. R’ Shmuel bar Naḥmani citing R’ Yonatan - Sets up a contradiction: Israel is “numbered like sand” yet also “cannot be measured/counted” - Hosea 2:1

   1. Resolves: If Israel does God’s will → innumerable; if not → countable like sand

   2. R’ Yehuda HaNasi citing Abba Yosei ben Dostai - Alternative resolution: human counting fails (“cannot be measured/counted”); God’s counting succeeds (“like sand”) - Hosea 2:1

Part 2

1. Rav Nehilai bar Idi citing Shmuel - Once someone is appointed communal leader, he becomes wealthy

   1. Prooftext from Saul moving from “shards” to “sheep” as counting tokens - I Sam 11:8; 15:4

2. R’ Mani - “Saul strove in the valley” = he argued with God over the valley/heifer logic: if 1 death triggers eglah arufah, mass killing is harder to justify - I Sam 15:3-5

   1. Bat kol rebukes Saul’s misplaced mercy: “Do not be overly righteous”; later, when he orders killing the priests, “Do not be overly wicked” - Ecclesiastes 7:16–17; I Sam 22:18–19

3. Rav Huna - Contrasts divine “support”: Saul loses kingship after a single failure; David retains it despite 2 failures

   1. Clarifying Saul’s single failure = sparing Agag (not Nob); God’s rejection already stated after Agag episode - I Sam 15:11

   2. David’s two failures: Uriah and the census incitement - II Sam 11; 24:1

   3. Bathsheba episode is excluded from the “two” because punishment was already exacted “fourfold” via his children--child, Amnon, Tamar, Absalom - II Sam 12:6; II Sam 12–18

4. Rav Yehuda citing Rav - bat kol predicts kingdom split (Rehoboam/Jeroboam) - II Sam 19:30

5. Rav Huna - “Saul was 1 year old when he began to reign” = like a 1-year-old without sin - I Sam 13:1

   1. Anecdote - Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak objects with a crass alternative reading (“filthy like a child”); punished via nightmares; he apologizes to “bones of Saul… king of Israel”

6. Rav Yehuda citing Shmuel - Saul’s dynasty didn’t endure because he had no ancestral flaw

7. R’ Yoḥanan citing R’ Shimon ben Yehotzadak - One appoints a leader only if he has compromised ancestry (“box of שרצים”) so he can be humbled if arrogant

8. Rav Yehuda citing Rav - Saul was punished because he waived royal honor at the start

   1. Prooftext - I Sam 10:27; 11:1 (subsequent crisis of Nahash)

9. R’ Yoḥanan citing R’ Shimon ben Yehotzadak - A Torah scholar who doesn’t “avenge/hold a grudge like a snake” (when insulted) isn’t a Torah scholar

Appendix - Verses interpreted in the sugya, by verse

Judges

1. Judges 1:5 — “And they found Adoni-bezek in Bezek”

I Samuel

1. I Samuel 10:27 — “But he made himself as if he did not hear”

2. I Samuel 11:1 - “And Nahash the Ammonite marched up and encamped against Jabesh-gilead”

3. I Samuel 11:8 — “And he numbered them with bezek”

4. I Samuel 13:1 — “Saul was one year old when he began to reign”

5. I Samuel 15:3–5 — “Now go and attack Amalek ... and he strove in the valley”

6. I Samuel 15:4 — “And Saul summoned the people, and numbered them by sheep”

7. I Samuel 15:11 — “I regret that I have crowned Saul to be king”

8. I Samuel 22:18–19

II Samuel

1. II Samuel 11 (Uriah)

2. II Samuel 12:6; 12–18 (Bathsheba narrative)

3. II Samuel 19:30 — “I say that you and Ziba should divide the field”

4. II Samuel 24:1 (Census)

Hosea

1. Hosea 2:1 — “And the number of the children of Israel will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured”

Ecclesiastes

1. Ecclesiastes 7:16 — “Do not be overly righteous”

2. Ecclesiastes 7:17 — “Do not be overly wicked”

The Passage

Yoma.22b.2-23a.1

Baraita - In the Temple lottery, they count priests’ fingers (rather than counting priests directly)

ואם היו שניהן שוין --

הממונה אומר להם הצביעו וכו׳.

תנא:

הוציאו אצבעותיכם למנין.

§ It was taught in the Mishnah that if both of them were equal and neither preceded the other --

the appointed priest says to all the priests: Extend your fingers [hatzbiu], and a lottery was performed.

A tanna taught the meaning of the unusual term hatzbiu:

Put out your fingers for a count.

R’ Yitzḥak - It is prohibited to count Jews directly, even for a mitzva (thus the lottery counts fingers instead of people) - I Samuel 11:8

ונימנינהו לדידהו?

מסייע ליה לרבי יצחק.

דאמר רבי יצחק:

אסור למנות את ישראל אפילו לדבר מצוה,

דכתיב:

״ויפקדם בבזק״.

The Talmud asks: Let him count the priests themselves directly, rather than counting their fingers.

The Talmud answers: This is a support for a teaching of R’ Yitzḥak,

as R’ Yitzḥak said:

It is prohibited to count Jews directly,² even for the purposes of a mitzva,

as it is written concerning King Saul and his count of his soldiers:

“And he numbered them with bezek” (I Samuel 11:8),

meaning that he counted them through shards, one shard representing each man, rather than counting them directly.

Rav Ashi - Challenges R’ Yitzḥak’s derivation: maybe “Bezek” is a place-name , not “shards” - Judges 1:5

מתקיף לה רב אשי:

ממאי דהאי ״בזק״

לישנא דמיבזק הוא?

ודילמא שמא דמתא הוא,

כדכתיב:

״וימצאו אדוני בזק״.

Rav Ashi strongly objects to this interpretation of the verse:

From where do you derive that this word bezek is a term related to the verb meaning to break apart,

so that it means shards?

Perhaps it is the name of a town,

and it means that Saul counted them in Bezek, as it is written:

“And they found Adoni-bezek in Bezek” (Judges 1:5),

which shows that Bezek is the name of a place.³

Alternative proof that Saul counted indirectly: he counted them “by sheep” - I Samuel 15:4

אלא מהכא:

״וישמע שאול את העם

ויפקדם בטלאים״.

The Talmud answers: Indeed, the proof is not from that verse but from here,

where it says: “And Saul summoned the people

and numbered them by sheep” (I Samuel 15:4),

meaning that Saul tallied his soldiers by having each one take a sheep and put it aside to represent him in the count.

R’ Elazar - Counting Israel violates a negative prohibition - Hosea 2:1

אמר רבי אלעזר:

כל המונה את ישראל עובר בלאו,

שנאמר:

״והיה מספר בני ישראל כחול הים

אשר לא ימד״.

R’ Elazar said:

Whoever counts a group of Jews violates a negative mitzva,

as it is stated:

“And the number of the children of Israel will be like the sand of the sea,

which cannot be measured” (Hosea 2:1).

R’ Elazar interprets the verse to be saying: Which may not be measured.

Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak - Counting Israel violates 2 negative prohibitions - Hosea 2:1

רב נחמן בר יצחק אמר:

עובר בשני לאוין,

שנאמר:

״לא ימד

ולא יספר״.

Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak said:

One who counts a group of Jews in fact violates two negative mitzvot,

as it is stated in that verse:

“Which cannot be measured

and cannot be counted” (Hosea 2:1).

R’ Shmuel bar Naḥmani citing R’ Yonatan - Sets up a contradiction: Israel is “numbered like sand” yet also “cannot be measured/counted” - Hosea 2:1

אמר רבי שמואל בר נחמני:

רבי יונתן רמי:

• כתיב:

  • ״והיה מספר בני ישראל כחול הים״,

• וכתיב

  • ״אשר לא ימד ולא יספר״

R’ Shmuel bar Naḥmani said that

R’ Yonatan raised a contradiction:

• It is written in this verse:

  • “And the number of the children of Israel will be like the sand of the sea,”

  • suggesting that they will have a specific number, though it will be very large.

• On the other hand, it continues and is written:

  • “Which cannot be measured and cannot be counted,”

  • which means they will not be countable at all.

How can these two statements be reconciled?

Resolves: If Israel does God’s will → innumerable; if not → countable like sand

לא קשיא:

• כאן

  • בזמן שישראל עושין רצונו של מקום,

• כאן

  • בזמן שאין עושין רצונו של מקום.

It is not difficult:

• Here, in the second statement,

  • it is referring to a time when the Jewish people fulfill the will of God;

  • then they will be innumerable.

• There, in the first statement,

  • it is referring to a time when the Jewish people do not fulfill the will of God;

  • then they will be like the sand of the sea, having a specific number.

R’ Yehuda HaNasi citing Abba Yosei ben Dostai - Alternative resolution: human counting fails (“cannot be measured/counted”); God’s counting succeeds (“like sand”) - Hosea 2:1

רבי אמר, משום אבא יוסי בן דוסתאי,

לא קשיא:

• כאן

  • בידי אדם,

• כאן

  • בידי שמים.

R’ Yehuda HaNasi said a different resolution in the name of Abba Yosei ben Dostai:

It is not difficult:

• Here, in the second statement,

  • it is referring to counting by the hand of man;

  • the Jewish people will be too numerous to count by man.

• There, in the first statement,

  • it is referring to counting by the hand of God,

  • and He will find that they are like the number of the grains of the sand of the sea.

1. I.e., taking a census of the Jewish population.

Related to this topic, compare also elsewhere in the Talmud, these pieces of mine:

• “Crowds, Crushes, and Censuses: Talmudic Historical Anecdotes of The Pilgrimage to Jerusalem for Passover in the Late Second Temple Period (Pesachim 64b)“

• “Pt2 From Babylon’s Ruins to Jewish Multitudes: Talmudic Blessings for Idolatry, Crowds, and Leadership (Berakhot 57b-58a)“

• “Large Numbers (≥100) in the Talmud: A Data Analysis“

2. On this halachic prohibition, see the general discussions here:

• איסור מניית ישראל

• איסור מניין בני ישראל

3. See Wikipedia, “Adoni-Bezek“:

Adoni-Bezek, ([…] “lord of Bezek”) […] was a Canaanite king referred to in the Book of Judges (Judges 1:4–7).

Previous to the occupation of Canaan by the Israelites, he had subdued seventy of the kings of cities around him.

The tribes of Judah and Simeon attacked the Canaanites and the Perizzites at Bezek and defeated him.