Pt1 Mourning and Consolation: From the Women of Shekhantziv to the Elders of Yavne (Moed Katan 28b-29a)

This is the first part of a two-part series. The outline of the series is below.

This sugya weaves halakha, aggadah, and consolation into a discourse on mourning, death, and the dignity of both the living and the deceased.

Part 1

It opens with a Mishnah regulating women’s mourning practices on different calendar days. On the intermediate days of a Festival they may wail in unison, but not clap. R’ Yishmael permits clapping for those closest to the bier. On Rosh Chodesh, Hanukkah, and Purim—days less weighty than biblical festivals—wailing and clapping are allowed, but not the structured lament, a call-and-response form. After burial, no outward mourning is permitted at all. The Mishnah carefully defines these categories: “wailing” is collective outcry, “lament” is antiphonal chanting. A concluding verse looks to the messianic future when God will abolish death and wipe away all tears (Isaiah 25:8).

The Talmud then records examples of what mourners actually say. Rav provides a formula: “Woe to the one departing, woe to the one returning the pledge,” the soul given in trust. Rava brings seven sayings of the women of Shekhantziv: reflections on death, old age, bereavement, burial shrouds, reckless borrowing, dishonest merchants, and the inevitability of suffering as “interest” added to death. Their aphorisms crystallize communal attitudes toward mortality and justice.

A baraita transmits R’ Meir’s teaching from Ecclesiastes: visiting the house of mourning teaches that “he who eulogizes will be eulogized, he who buries will be buried, he who humbles himself will be raised.”

Part 2

The sugya then segues into the most elaborate section: four elders—R. Tarfon, R’ Yosei ha-Gelili, R’ Elazar ben Azarya, and R’ Akiva—consoling R’ Yishmael on the death of his sons. Each offers a kal va-ḥomer from Scripture: if Nadav and Avihu, Abijah son of Jeroboam, King Zedekiah, and even King Ahab merited national mourning or honor despite limited merit, then certainly R’ Yishmael’s sons, who were righteous, are worthy of grief and remembrance. The baraita carefully stages their rhetorical sequence, with R’ Tarfon urging each to speak in turn and R’ Akiva reserving the final word. R’ Yishmael himself begins with a confession that his sins brought repeated bereavements, adding a note of humility.

From here, the sugya broadens. Rava and Rabba bar Mari reconcile apparent contradictions in Scripture about Zedekiah’s “peaceful death” (despite his blinding) and Josiah’s “peaceful burial” (despite his violent death), both resolved through the teaching of R’ Yoḥanan: peace refers not to physical circumstances but to the historical context—Nebuchadnezzar’s death in Zedekiah’s lifetime, and the Temple’s survival in Josiah’s.

Halakhic details of mourning etiquette follow. R’ Yoḥanan rules that consolers must wait for the mourner to speak first, based on Job’s friends. R’ Abbahu and others debate whether the mourner or consoler sits at the head of the table, citing verses from Job and Amos. R’ Ḥama b. Ḥanina extends this to a groom, and the school of R’ Yishmael to a priest. In each case, Scripture is mined for symbolic precedence.

The sugya then reflects on the moment of death itself. R’ Ḥanina and R’ Yoḥanan compare the soul’s departure to thick ropes or rigging forced through a narrow aperture. R’ Levi bar Ḥayyata distinguishes parting blessings: to the dead, one should say “Go in peace,” but to the living, “Go to peace,” supported by prooftexts (Abraham vs. Absalom, Jethro vs. Moses). The sugya closes by uplifting the righteous: R’ Levi extols those who pass between prayer and study as encountering the Shekhina (Ps. 84:8), and Rav Ḥiyya b. Ashi in Rav’s name teaches that Torah scholars rest neither in this world nor the next, ever ascending “from strength to strength.”

Outline

Intro

The Passage

Mishnah

1. On Festivals, women may wail but not clap

2. R’ Yishmael permits clapping for those near the bier

3. On Rosh Chodesh, Hanukkah, and Purim: both wail and clap, but no lamenting

4. After burial, wailing and clapping prohibited

5. “Wailing” = all together; “lament” = call-and-response; future promise of God wiping away tears - Jeremiah 9:19; Isaiah 25:8

Talmud

1. Rav - The women say: “Woe to the one departing, woe to the one returning the pledge (the soul)”

2. Rava reports sayings of women of Shekhantziv: A List of 7 Sayings

   1. #1 - Death imagery

   2. #2 - About the elderly

   3. #3 - At a time of bereavement

   4. #4 - About burial shroud

   5. #5 - On borrowing money

   6. #6 - Merchants will be examined at their places of business to see if they are honest businessmen

   7. #7 - On death and suffering

3. R’ Meir - one who eulogizes will be eulogized, one who buries will be buried, etc - Ecclesiastes 7:2

   1. One who humbles himself will be raised - Proverbs 25:6–7

Part 2

1. The Story of the Four Elders Consoling R’ Yishmael upon the death of his sons

   1. R’ Tarfon, R’ Yosei HaGelili, R’ Elazar b Azarya, and R’ Akiva come to console R’ Yishmael upon the death of his sons

   2. R’ Tarfon and R’ Akiva discuss upcoming protocol of the speeches

   3. R’ Yishmael - confession of guilt

   4. #1 - R’ Tarfon - a fortiori from Nadav and Avihu - Leviticus 10:6

   5. #2 - R’ Yosei HaGelili - a fortiori from Abijah - I Kings 14:13

   6. #3 - R’ Elazar ben Azarya - a fortiori from Zedekiah - Jeremiah 34:5, 38:10

   7. #4 - R’ Akiva - a fortiori from Ahab - Zechariah 12:11; I Kings 22:35

2. Rava and Rabba bar Mari (via R’ Yoḥanan) - Resolve contradictions: Zedekiah “died in peace” since Nebuchadnezzar died in his lifetime; Josiah “gathered in peace” since Temple not destroyed in his days - Jer. 39:7; II Kings 22:20

3. R’ Yoḥanan - Consolers must wait until mourner speaks first - Job 2:13–3:1; 4:1

4. R’ Abbahu - Mourner reclines at the head of the table - Job 29:25

   1. Rav Naḥman b. Yitzḥak - Reads “yinaḥem” (“will be comforted”) instead of “yenaḥem” (“comforts”) - Job 29:25

   2. Mar Zutra - Another prooftext: the mourner is made “chief” over those beside him - Amos 6:7

5. R’ Ḥama b. Ḥanina - A groom also reclines at the head, like a priest - Isaiah 61:10

   1. R’ Yishmael’s School - Priests take precedence - Leviticus 21:8

6. R’ Ḥanina - The soul’s departure is as difficult as a rope through a narrow eye

7. R’ Yoḥanan - Compares death’s difficulty to a halyard passing through an eye

8. R’ Levi b. Ḥayyata - Farewell formulas: To the dead say “Go in peace” ( בשלום); to the living say “Go to peace” ( לשלום)

   1. Prooftexts - Genesis 15:15

   2. Disaster of David and Absalom vs success of Jethro and Moses - II Samuel 15:9; Exodus 4:18

9. R’ Levi - One who goes from synagogue to study hall, or vice versa, merits seeing the Shekhina - Psalms 84:8

10. Rav Ḥiyya b. Ashi citing Rav - Torah scholars have no rest, even in the World-to-Come: “They go from strength to strength” - Psalms 84:8

The Passage

Moed_Katan.28b.1-29a.6

Mishnah

On Festivals, mourning women may wail but not clap

נשים במועד מענות,

אבל לא מטפחות.

On the intermediate days of a Festival women may wail (מענות) in grief over the deceased,

but they may not clap [מטפחות - metapeḥot] their hands in mourning.

R’ Yishmael permits clapping for mourning women near the bier

רבי ישמעאל אומר:

הסמוכות למטה —

מטפחות.

R’ Yishmael says:

Those who are close to the bier (מטה - literally: “bed”) —

may clap.

On Rosh Chodesh, Hanukkah, and Purim: mourning women may both wail and clap, but no lamenting

1. בראשי חדשים,

2. בחנוכה

3. ובפורים —

מענות ומטפחות,

בזה וזה —

לא מקוננות.

1. On New Moons,

2. Hanukkah

3. and Purim, all of which are not Festivals by Torah law —

the women may both wail and clap their hands in mourning.

On both the intermediate days of a Festival and on New Moons, Hanukkah and Purim —

they may not lament (מקוננות)

After burial, wailing and clapping prohibited

נקבר המת —

לא מענות ולא מטפחות.

After the deceased has been buried —

they may neither wail nor clap.

“Wailing” = all together; “lament” = call-and-response; future promise of God wiping away tears - Jeremiah 9:19; Isaiah 25:8

איזהו עינוי?

שכולן עונות כאחת,

The Mishnah explains:

What is considered wailing?

This is when they all wail¹ together (כאחת - literally: “as one”) simultaneously.

קינה —

שאחת מדברת

וכולן עונות אחריה,

שנאמר:

״ולמדנה בנותיכם נהי

ואשה רעותה קינה״.

And what is considered a lament?

This is when one speaks

and they all answer (עונות) after her with a repeated refrain,

as it is stated:

“And teach your daughters wailing (נהי)

and everyone her neighbor lamentation (קינה)” (Jeremiah 9:19).

אבל לעתיד לבא הוא אומר:

״בלע המות לנצח

ומחה ה׳ אלהים דמעה מעל כל פנים וגו׳״.

In order to conclude on a positive note, the Mishnah says:

But with regard to the messianic future, the verse states:

“He will destroy death forever;

and YHWH, God, will wipe away tears from off all faces

and the reproach of His people He will take away from off all the earth” (Isaiah 25:8).

Talmud

Rav - The women say: “Woe to the one departing, woe to the one returning the pledge (the soul)”

מאי אמרן?

אמר רב:

• ״ויי לאזלא,

• ויי לחבילא״.

What do the women who wail over the dead say?

Rav said:

They say:

• Woe² over him who is now departing;

• woe over him who is now returning the pledge (חבילא),

i.e., his soul, which had been deposited in his hands all the years of his life.

Rava reports sayings of women of Shekhantziv: A List of 7 Sayings

#1 - Death imagery

אמר רבא,

נשי דשכנציב אמרן הכי:

• ״ויי לאזלא,

• ויי לחבילא״.

Rava said:

The women in the city of Shekhantziv (שכנציב), who were known for their wisdom, would say as follows:

• “Woe over him who is now departing;

• woe over him who is now returning the pledge”

#2 - About the elderly

ואמר רבא,

נשי דשכנציב אמרן:

״גוד גרמא מככא

ונמטי מיא לאנטיכי״.

And Rava said:

The women of Shekhantziv would say about an elderly person:

“The bone has been removed from the jaw (ככא - literally: “teeth, molars”)

and the water returns to the kettle”³

#3 - At a time of bereavement

ואמר רבא,

נשי דשכנציב אמרן:

״עטוף וכסו טורי,

דבר רמי, ובר רברבי הוא״.

And Rava said:

The women of Shekhantziv would say at a time of bereavement:

“Wrap and cover the mountains in mourning,

as the deceased is elevated (בר רמי), and distinguished (בר רברבי).”

#4 - About burial shroud

ואמר רבא:

נשי דשכנציב אמרן:

״שייול אצטלא דמלתא לבר חורין,

דשלימו זוודיה״.

Rava said:

The women of Shekhantziv would say:

“Lend (שייול) out a cloak of fine wool to serve as a burial shroud for a free man

whose sustenance⁴ has been depleted.”

In other words, a wealthy person who loses his fortune would rather die than live in poverty.

#5 - On borrowing money

ואמר רבא,

נשי דשכנציב אמרן:

״רהיט ונפיל אמעברא

ויזופתא יזיף״.

And Rava said:

The women of Shekhantziv would say:

“A person runs and tumbles at the ford (מעברא - literally: “[place of] crossing”)

and still he borrows” (יזיף)

#6 - Merchants will be examined at their places of business to see if they are honest businessmen

ואמר רבא,

נשי דשכנציב אמרן:

״אחנא תגרי

אזבזגי מיבדקו״.

And Rava said:

The women of Shekhantziv would say:

“Our brothers, the merchants,

will be examined at their places⁵ of business

to see if they are honest businessmen.”

#7 - On death and suffering

ואמר רבא,

נשי דשכנציב אמרן:

״מותא כי מותא

ומרעין חיבוליא״.

And Rava said:

The women of Shekhantziv would say:

“Death is like death, as everyone must die,

and suffering (מרעין - literally: “sickness”) is like interest (חיבוליא)”

R’ Meir - one who eulogizes will be eulogized, one who buries will be buried, etc - Ecclesiastes 7:2

תניא,

היה רבי מאיר אומר:

״טוב ללכת אל בית אבל וגו׳״

עד ״והחי יתן אל לבו״ —

דברים של מיתה

It is taught in a baraita that

R’ Meir would say with regard to the verse

“It is better to go to the house of mourning than to go to the house of feasting, for that is the end of all men;

and the living will lay it to his heart” (Ecclesiastes 7:2):

What should the living lay to his heart? Matters relating to death.

1. דיספד —

   1. יספדוניה,

2. דיקבר —

   1. יקברוניה,

3. דיטען —

   1. יטענוניה,

4. דידל —

   1. ידלוניה.

And these matters are as follows:

1. He that eulogizes

   1. will be eulogized by others.

2. He that buries others

   1. will be buried by others.

3. He that loads (יטען) many words of praise and tribute into the eulogies that he delivers for others

   1. will be similarly treated by others.

4. He that raises (ידל - “lifts”) his voice in weeping over others

   1. will have others raise their voices over him.

One who humbles himself will be raised - Proverbs 25:6–7

ואיכא דאמרי:

דלא ידל —

ידלוניה,

דכתיב:

״כי טוב אמר לך:

עלה הנה וגו׳״.

And some say:

One who does not raise himself with pride, but chooses his place among the lowly --

will be raised by others,

as it is written:

“Do not exalt yourself in the king’s presence, and stand not in the place of great men.

For it is better to be told:

“step up⁶ here,”

than to be degraded in the presence of the great” (Proverbs 25:6–7).

1. עונות - literally: “[they] answer” (grammatical plural feminine), i.e. call-and-response.

2. ויי.

On this word, see my note (f. 2) on “ ‘And it Came to Pass’: The Ominous Implication of “Va-Yehi” in Biblical Narratives (Megillah 10b)“.

And see Jastrow (modernized), entry “וַי”, sense #1:

woe; (interjection) oh! woe!

• Aramaic Targum to Proverbs 23:29 ed. Vilna (ed. Lagarde וָיָא or וַיָא).

• Aramaic Targum to Psalms 120:5;

• and frequently.

• Bereishit Rabbah 26:4 - לא ישלה ווי מפומך - “the word woe shall never cease from your lips”

• Bereishit Rabbah 26:4 - ווי דלא וכ׳ - “woe that my son does not eat etc.”

• Avodah Zarah 11b:4 - ויי לדין כד וכ׳ - “woe to this one (Esau), when that one (Jacob) shall rise”

• Megillah 16a:21 - ויי מביתא וכ׳ - “woe from inside, woe from outside!

• Megillah 11a:10 - (play on vayhi, Esther 1:1) ויי והי הדא וכ׳ (Manuscript Munich: ויי הוה מה וכ׳; see Rabbinowicz, ‘Dikdukei Sofrim’ there, note, and marginal note in printed editions) - “woe and grief, as it is written etc.”

• and frequently.

And see Wiktionary, “οὐαί“ [ouaí], section “Etymology”:

Traditionally compared with the set Latin vae, Gothic 𐍅𐌰𐌹 (wai), etc., from Proto-Indo-European *wáy, but it is not derivable from there through regular sound laws.

Lowe argues against οὐαί being a transliteration of Biblical Hebrew אוֹי (‘oy).

Ultimately expressive.

3. אנטיכי - from Greek.

On this word, see Jastrow (modernized), entry “*אַנְטִיכִי”:

(ἀγγοθήκη, ἐγγυθήκη [angothēkē (=”receptacle for vessels”), engythēkē], corrupted Latin incitega (“leg of an amphora“))

a receptacle for vessels, a stand for hanging in kettles, tripods etc.

• Mishnah Shabbat 3:4 (Shabbat 41a:8); Ibid. one opinion, בי כירי - antichi (in the Mishnah) means a vessel suspended between fire places (heated bricks)”

• another opinion: בי דודי - “a metal vessel suspended within a caldron-like vessel,” the vacant space beneath being filled with coals.

• Ibid. (in evidence of the latter opinion) א׳ אע”פ שהיא גרופה וכ׳ Manuscript Munich: (printed edition: אע׳’פ שגרופה וקטומה) - “an antichi, even when cleaned of coals etc.”

• Jerusalem Talmud Shabbat 3:3:15

• Tosefta Beitsah 3:20. Yerushalmi ibid. 1, 60c bottom of page - כהדא א׳ נפלת וכ׳ - “as in the case of an antichi which fell etc.”

• *Moed Katan 28b:6 (in a funeral dirge) - גוד גרמא מככא ונמטי מיא לא׳ - “take the bone (pin) out of the jaw (the base in which the vessel is suspended) and let water be put into the antichi,” i.e. body and soul are now separated, the latter being the vessel going back to the (divine) spring; compare Ecclesiastes 12:6 sq.; [Manuscript Munich: … מבבא … לאנטוכיא, see Rabbinowicz, ‘Dikdukei Sofrim’ there, note.]

4. זוודיה.

This word is especially used in the Talmud in the context of “provisions” for the corpse (i.e. shrouds) and metaphorically for the afterlife.

On this word, see Jastrow (modernized), entry “זְוַד”:

Pa’el זַוֵּיד, זַוִּוִד (compare זבד; = Biblical Hebrew צוד)

to endow, outfit, especially for travelling.

• Targum Jerusalem, Deuteronomy 15:14 (Hebrew text הַעֲנֵק).

• Avodah Zarah 17a:11 זַוִּידוּ לה זוודתא (editorial insertion; Manuscript Munich: טרחו, see Rabbinowicz, ‘Dikdukei Sofrim’ there, note) prepare her shrouds;

• Rosh Hashanah 17a זוידו Manuscript Munich: (ed. צביתו).

Itpa’al: -

אִזְדַּיַּוד 1) to provide one’s self for a journey, lay in provision.

• Targum Jonathan on Joshua 9:12 (h. text הִצְטַיַּד־).

2) to tie up bundles.

• Ibid. 4 (Hebrew text הצטיר, see צוּר, צָרַר).

And ibid, entry “זְוָדָא”:

Aramaic (the preceding word)

1) = Hebrew: צידה, outfit for travelling, provision; dying outfit, shroud; Transferred sense: good deeds.

• Aramaic Targum to Psalms 132:15.

Plural: זְוָודִין, זְוָ׳.

• Onkelos Genesis 42:25;

• and elsewhere.

• Ketubot 67b:16 - זַוְודָּאַי קלילי - “my provision (for the journey of death) is scanty”

• Moed Katan 28b:7 דשלימו זְוָודֵיה - “whose outfit for death is completed,” see אִסְטְלָא.

זְוָודָתָא.

• Moed Katan 27b:14 צבית ז׳ לאידך - prepare the burial outfit for another son”

• Rosh Hashanah 17a; Avodah Zarah 17a:3, see the preceding word;

• and frequently.

2) bag, bundle.

• Kiddushin 12a ז׳ דאודדי (Arukh ed. Kohelet זְוָודֵי, plural:) - “a bundle of tow cotton” (being of small value).

On the citation from Moed Katan 27b:14 (which appears a folio earlier from our current sugya), see my “ “Prepare shrouds for yourself”: Community Responsibility for a Corpse, and the Deadly Consequences of Excessive Mourning (Moed Katan 27b)”.

5. זבזגי.

On this word, see Jastrow (modernized), entry “*זַבְזְגָא”, sense #1:

reduplication of זגא, see זְגֵי; for inserted ב, see זַבְלְגָן)

nest, brood, hatch.

• Moed Katan 28b:8 (in a funeral song) - אחנא תגרא אזַבְזְגֵיה מיבדיק (or:) תגרי … דאזַבְזְגֵי מיבדקו (see Rabbinowicz, ‘Dikdukei Sofrim’ there,; Rashi there,) - “our brother, the merchant, will be judged by the brood he left behind,” or: “our brethren, the merchants, will be judged by the broods” (allusion to Jeremiah 17:11). [Ein Yaakov reads תגרי … דאזְבוּנֵי מיבדקי - “our (departed) brethren are merchants who (on crossing the frontier of life) are searched for goods.”

  Manuscript Munich: 2 דאזַוְקֵי וכ׳ - “who are searched for the wine bags they carry,” see זִיקָא II a. זוק.]

6. עלה.

Meaning, “raise, lift” in this context is referring to rising in status, and not to raising the voice (in eulogy).