Humanity's Deserving of the Torah on Trial: Moses Convincingly Argues That the Ten Commandments Are Irrelevant For Angels (Shabbat 88b-89a)
Part of a series of posts on the aggadic sugya of Matan Torah (“Giving of the Torah”, in Shabbat 86b-89b), on the occasion of the upcoming holiday of Shavuot.1
A dramatic and theologically charged scene in the Talmud unfolds in this sugya, where Moses ascends to heaven (מרום) to receive the Torah—and is immediately challenged by the angels. Why, they ask, should a mortal (ילוד אשה) intrude upon the divine realm to claim a treasure (חמדה גנוזה) that has remained hidden with God since before the creation of the world?
What follows is not a simple transmission of revelation but a cosmic courtroom debate. The angels argue that the Torah belongs in heaven; Moses, encouraged by God and shielded by His glory, must justify humanity’s right to this sacred gift. Drawing directly from the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-13), Moses demonstrates that the Torah’s laws—about idolatry, Shabbat, oaths, family, and morality—are relevant only to human beings, not celestial beings.
The debate ends not only with Moses victorious but with the angels transformed: they—even the Angel of Death—become his admirers (אוהב) and offer him gifts (מסר לו דבר).
Biblical Verses
Exodus 20:2-13
Commandment # 1 - The Exodus (Exodus 20:2):
אנכי יהוה אלהיך
אשר הוצאתיך מארץ מצרים מבית עבד͏ים
I YHWH am your God
who brought you out of the land of Egypt, the house of bondage
Commandment # 2 - Prohibition on idolatry (Exodus 20:3):
לא־יהי͏ה־לך אלהים אחרים על־פנ͏י
You shall have no other gods besides Me.
[…]
Commandment # 3 - Prohibition on Vain Oath (Exodus 20:7):
לא תשא את־שם־יהוה אלהיך לשוא
You shall not swear falsely by the name of YHWH your God
[…]
Commandment # 4 - Keeping Shabbat (Exodus 20:8):
זכור את־יום השבת לקדשו
Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy
[…]
Commandment # 5 - Honoring parents (Exodus 20:12):
כבד את־אביך ואת־אמך
Honor your father and your mother
[…]
Commandments # 6-8 - Prohibitions on murder, adultery, stealing (Exodus 20:13):
לא תרצ͏ח
לא תנא͏ף
לא תגנב
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
Psalms 8: Verses 2, 5, 10
Psalms.8.2, 5, 10 (translation JPS 1985, from Sefaria, with slight adjustments):3
יהוה אדנינו
מה־אדיר שמך בכל־הארץ
אשר תנה הודך על־השמים
O YHWH, our Lord (אדנינו),
How majestic (אדיר) is Your name throughout the earth,
You who have covered the heavens with Your splendor (הודך)!
[…]
מה־אנוש כי־תזכרנו
ובן־אדם כי תפקדנו
what is man (אנוש) that You have been mindful (תזכרנו) of him,
mortal man (בן אדם) that You have taken note (תפקדנו) of him
[…]
יהוה אדנינו
מה־אדיר שמך בכל־הארץ
O YHWH, our Lord,
how majestic is Your name throughout the earth!
Outline
Intro
Biblical Verses
Exodus 20: Verses 2-13
Psalms 8: Verses 2, 5, 10
Why the Divine Torah Belongs on Earth: Moses’ Proves the Inapplicability of the Ten Commandments to the Angels In Front of God (Shabbat 88b-89a)
When Moses ascended to receive the Torah, the ministering angels questioned why a mortal was among them
The angels objected, arguing that Torah should remain in heaven (Psalms 8:2,5)
Moses Fears the Angels and Is Protected by God's Glory (Job 26:9): God Commands Moses to Defend Humanity's Right to the Torah; Moses Fears Angelic Retaliation; God Offers Divine Protection
Moses’ Argument Against the Angels’ Claim to the Torah (Exodus 20): Human Context of the Ten Commandments
Commandment # 1 - The Exodus (Exodus 20:2)
Commandment # 2 - Prohibition on idolatry (Exodus 20:3)
Commandment # 4 - Keeping Shabbat (Exodus 20:8)
Commandment # 3 - Prohibition on Vain Oath (Exodus 20:7)
Commandment # 5 - Honoring parents (Exodus 20:12)
Commandments # 6-8 - Prohibitions on murder, adultery, stealing (Exodus 20:13): Prohibitions Tied to Human Instincts and Morality
Moses, the Angels, and the Transfer of Divine Knowledge
Heavenly Concession to Humanity (Psalms 8:10)
Moses Wins Angelic Favor (Psalms 68:19)
Even the Angel of Death Contributes (Numbers 17:12–13)
Appendix 1 - Table summarizing Moses’ extended argument against the angels' claim to the Torah
Appendix 2 - Broader Literary Analysis of Moses’ Defense of Humanity’s Claim to the Torah
Dialogic Structure and Rhetorical Reversal
Midrashic Irony and Earthly Realism
Use of Satirical Deflation
Anthropocentric Theology
Polemic Against Angelic Idealism
Conclusion: A Torah of Flesh and Blood
The Passage
When Moses ascended to receive the Torah, the ministering angels questioned why a mortal was among them
ואמר רבי יהושע בן לוי:
בשעה שעלה משה למרום
אמרו מלאכי השרת לפני הקדוש ברוך הוא:
רבונו של עולם!
מה לילוד אשה בינינו?!
And R' Yehoshua ben Levi said:
When Moses ascended on High to receive the Torah,
the ministering angels said before the Holy One, Blessed be He:
Master of the Universe!
what is one born of a woman doing here among us?!
The angels objected, arguing that Torah should remain in heaven (Psalms 8:2,5)
God explained that Moses came to receive the Torah, but the angels protested, arguing that the Torah, a “treasure (חמדה גנוזה) hidden 974 generations before Creation”, should not be given to mere mortal.
They cited Psalms (8:2,5) to emphasize that humans are insignificant compared to the heavens, where God’s majesty and Torah rightfully belong.
אמר להן: לקבל תורה בא.
אמרו לפניו:
חמדה גנוזה
שגנוזה לך תשע מאות ושבעים וארבעה דורות קודם שנברא העולם,
אתה מבקש ליתנה לבשר ודם?!
״מה אנוש כי תזכרנו
ובן אדם כי תפקדנו״?
״ה׳ אדנינו
מה אדיר שמך בכל הארץ
אשר תנה הודך על השמים״!
The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to them: He came to receive the Torah.
The angels said before Him:
The Torah is a hidden treasure
that was concealed by You 974 generations before the creation of the world,
and You seek to give it to flesh and blood?!
As it is stated: “The word which He commanded to a thousand generations” (Psalms 105:8). Since the Torah, the word of God, was given to the twenty-sixth generation after Adam, the first man, the remaining 974 generations must have preceded the creation of the world.
“What is man that You are mindful of him
and the son of man that You think of him?” (Psalms 8:5).
Rather, “YHWH our Lord,
how glorious is Your name in all the earth
that Your majesty is placed above the heavens” (Psalms 8:2). The rightful place of God’s majesty, the Torah, is in the heavens.
Moses Fears the Angels and Is Protected by God's Glory (Job 26:9): God Commands Moses to Defend Humanity's Right to the Torah; Moses Fears Angelic Retaliation; God Offers Divine Protection
God tells Moses to give a justification to the angels for why the Torah should be given to humans.
Moses expresses fear that the angels will burn him (ישרפוני) with the fiery breath (הבל) of their mouths.
God tells Moses to grasp His throne.4
The verse from Job 26:9 is cited as the source, and R' Naḥum explains it to mean that God covered Moses with His radiance5 and cloud as protection.6
אמר לו הקדוש ברוך הוא למשה: החזיר להן תשובה.
אמר לפניו:
רבונו של עולם!
מתיירא אני שמא ישרפוני בהבל שבפיהם.
אמר לו:
אחוז בכסא כבודי
וחזור להן תשובה.
שנאמר:
״מאחז פני כסא
פרשז עליו עננו״,
ואמר רבי נחום:
מלמד
שפירש שדי מזיו שכינתו ועננו עליו.
The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to Moses: Provide them with an answer as to why the Torah should be given to the people.
Moses said before Him:
Master of the Universe!
I am afraid lest they burn me with the breath of their mouths.
God said to him:
Grasp My throne of glory for strength and protection,
and provide them with an answer.
And from where is this derived? As it is stated:
“He causes him to grasp the front of the throne,
and spreads His cloud over it” (Job 26:9),
and R' Naḥum said:
This verse teaches
that God spread the radiance of His presence and His cloud over Moses.
Moses’ Argument Against the Angels’ Claim to the Torah (Exodus 20): Human Context of the Torah; Torah for Mortals
Moses defends humanity’s right to receive the Torah by showing that the Ten Commandments are tailored to human life, and therefore not relevant to angels.7
Commandment # 1 - The Exodus (Exodus 20:2)
Moses begins by quoting the opening commandment: “I am YHWH your God who brought you out of Egypt”.
Moses challenges the angels, rhetorically asking them: “Did you go down to Egypt?! Were you enslaved to Pharaoh?!”
אמר לפניו:
רבונו של עולם!
תורה שאתה נותן לי
מה כתיב בה?
״אנכי ה׳ אלהיך
אשר הוצאתיך מארץ מצרים״.
אמר להן:
למצרים ירדתם?!
לפרעה השתעבדתם?!
תורה למה תהא לכם?!
Moses said before Him:
Master of the Universe!
the Torah that You are giving me, what is written in it?
God said to him: “I am YHWH your God
Who brought you out of Egypt from the house of bondage” (Exodus 20:2).
Moses said to the angels:
Did you descend to Egypt?!
Were you enslaved to Pharaoh?!
Why should the Torah be yours?!
Commandment # 2 - Prohibition on idolatry (Exodus 20:3)
Then, citing “You shall have no other gods”, Moses rhetorically asks if they live among pagans, that they’d require such a prohibition.
שוב:
מה כתיב בה?
״לא יהיה לך אלהים אחרים״.
בין הגוים אתם שרויין, שעובדין עבודה זרה?!
Again Moses asked:
What else is written in it?
God said to him: “You shall have no other gods before Me” (Exodus 20:3).
Moses said to the angels: Do you dwell among the nations who worship idols that you require this special warning?
Commandment # 4 - Keeping Shabbat (Exodus 20:8)
When God says, “Remember the Shabbat day”, Moses rhetorically asks the angels: “Do you do any work from which you must rest?!”
שוב:
מה כתיב בה?
״זכור את יום השבת לקדשו״ —
כלום אתם עושים מלאכה, שאתם צריכין שבות?!
Again Moses asked:
What else is written in it?
The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to him: “Remember the Shabbat day to sanctify it” (Exodus 20:8).
Moses asked the angels: Do you perform labor that you require rest from it?!
Commandment # 3 - Prohibition on Vain Oath (Exodus 20:7)
Regarding “Do not take God’s name in vain”, Moses rhetorically asks the angels: “Do you engage in commerce?!”8
שוב:
מה כתיב בה?
״לא תשא״ —
משא ומתן יש ביניכם?!
Again Moses asked:
What else is written in it?
“Do not take the name of the Lord your God in vain” (Exodus 20:7), meaning that it is prohibited to swear falsely.
Moses asked the angels: Do you conduct business with one another that may lead you to swear falsely?!
Commandment # 5 - Honoring parents (Exodus 20:12)
Moses hears “Honor your father and mother” and rhetorically questions the angels: “Do you have parents?!”
שוב:
מה כתיב בה?
״כבד את אביך ואת אמך״ —
אב ואם יש לכם?!
Again Moses asked:
What else is written in it?
The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to him: “Honor your father and your mother” (Exodus 20:12).
Moses asked the angels: Do you have a father or a mother that would render the commandment to honor them relevant to you?!
Commandments # 6-8 - Prohibitions on murder, adultery, stealing (Exodus 20:13): Prohibitions Tied to Human Instincts and Morality
Lastly, God lists “Do not murder,” “Do not commit adultery,” and “Do not steal.”
Moses rhetorically asks the angels: “Do you experience jealousy (קנאה) or have an evil inclination?!”9
שוב:
מה כתיב בה?
״לא תרצח״,
״לא תנאף״,
״לא תגנב״.
קנאה יש ביניכם?!
יצר הרע יש ביניכם?!
Again Moses asked:
What else is written in it?
God said to him:
“You shall not murder,
you shall not commit adultery,
you shall not steal” (Exodus 20:13)
Moses asked the angels:
Is there jealousy among you?!
or is there an evil inclination within you that would render these commandments relevant?!
Moses, the Angels, and the Transfer of Divine Knowledge
Heavenly Concession to Humanity (Psalms 8:10)
After hearing Moses’ arguments, the angels immediately conceded to God’s decision.
This is inferred from Psalms 8:10,10 which praises God’s name throughout the earth but omits the phrase “above the heavens” (indicating that the angels accepted the Torah’s place below, among humans).
מיד
הודו לו להקדוש ברוך הוא,
שנאמר:
״ה׳ אדנינו
מה אדיר שמך וגו׳״,
ואילו ״תנה הודך על השמים״ לא כתיב.
Immediately
they agreed with the Holy One, Blessed be He, that He made the right decision to give the Torah to the people,
and as it is stated:
“YHWH our Lord,
how glorious is Your name in all the earth” (Psalms 8:10),
while “that Your majesty is placed above the heavens” is not written because the angels agreed with God that it is appropriate to give the Torah to the people on earth.
Moses Wins Angelic Favor (Psalms 68:19)
Following Moses’ arguments, each angel became fond of Moses and gave him a gift.
This is derived from Psalms 68:19, where Moses is portrayed as having “ascended on high“11 and “taken gifts” (מתנות), “on account of man,” a reward for being acknowledged as human (אדם) and therefore deserving of the Torah.
מיד
כל אחד ואחד נעשה לו אוהב
ומסר לו דבר,
שנאמר:
״עלית למרום
שבית שבי
לקחת מתנות באדם״ —
בשכר שקראוך ״אדם״, לקחת מתנות.
Immediately,
each and every one of the angels became an admirer of Moses
and passed something to him,
as it is stated:
“You ascended on high,
you took a captive,
you took gifts on account of man, and even among the rebellious also that the Lord God might dwell there” (Psalms 68:19).
The meaning of the verse is: In reward for the fact that they called you man, you are not an angel and the Torah is applicable to you, you took gifts from the angels.
Even the Angel of Death Contributes (Numbers 17:12–13)
Even the Angel of Death handed Moses knowledge, specifically the secret of halting a plague with incense (קטרת).
This is seen in the narrative where Aaron, at Moses’ instruction, uses incense to stop the plague.
The Talmud argues that such knowledge could only have come from the Angel of Death himself.
אף מלאך המות מסר לו דבר,
שנאמר:
״ויתן את הקטרת
ויכפר על העם״,
ואומר: ״ויעמד בין המתים ובין החיים וגו׳״ —
אי לאו דאמר ליה, מי הוה ידע?!
And even the Angel of Death gave him something, as Moses told Aaron how to stop the plague,
as it is stated:
“And he placed the incense,
and he atoned for the people” (Numbers 17:12).
And the verse says: “And he stood between the dead and the living, and the plague was stopped” (Numbers 17:13).
If it were not that the Angel of Death told him this remedy, would he have known it?
Appendix 1 - Table summarizing Moses’ extended argument against the angels' claim to the Torah
(Moses' arguments rephrased in standard declarative form instead of rhetorical questions.)
Appendix 2 - Broader Literary Analysis of Moses’ Defense of Humanity’s Claim to the Torah
Dialogic Structure and Rhetorical Reversal
The passage unfolds as a courtroom-style dialogue between Moses, God, and the angels, structured around a repeated question-and-response format.
Moses asks, “What is written in it?” followed by God citing a commandment.
Each time, Moses responds with a rhetorical question, exposing the irrelevance of the commandment to angelic existence.
This repeated structure builds rhythm and escalation, functioning as a literary device to reinforce his central argument: the Torah is meant for humans, not for celestial beings.
Midrashic Irony and Earthly Realism
The irony is rich throughout: angels, often depicted as morally pure, seek access to a text that addresses profoundly human flaws—jealousy, lust, theft, falsehood, and familial obligation.
Moses subverts their claim not by appealing to human merit, but by emphasizing human need: The Torah’s relevance lies precisely in its engagement with human limitations.
This undercuts any idealized, spiritual reading of the commandments and roots them in the material and social world.
Use of Satirical Deflation
Moses' rhetorical questions puncture the angels’ elevated status by posing mundane, even earthy, rhetorical queries: “Do you do business?!” “Do you have a father or mother?!”
These are almost comic in their bluntness. This satirical tone has a leveling effect, cutting through metaphysical pretensions and grounding the Torah in lived, embodied experience.
Anthropocentric Theology
The passage presents a theological anthropology in which the Torah is not universal but tailored. The commandments are not abstract moral ideals but responses to specific human realities: slavery, labor, family, social conflict.
Moses reframes divine law not as transcendent perfection but as divine accommodation to human imperfection.
Polemic Against Angelic Idealism
This episode can be read as a polemic against ascetic or angelic modes of religiosity. The angels represent a view of Torah as ethereal and pure, while Moses argues for a down-to-earth, existential Torah.
It aligns with rabbinic tendencies to reject overly spiritualized approaches in favor of halakhic praxis embedded in everyday life.
Conclusion: A Torah of Flesh and Blood
Moses’ speech is a literary defense not only of humanity’s worthiness, but of the Torah’s essence. The Torah belongs to humans not because we are holy like angels, but because we are not.
The passage celebrates the Torah’s descent into the flawed world of labor, desire, family, and mortality—a world in which its laws are not only meaningful but necessary.
See the previous installments in the three-part series “Conditionality of Creation, Crowns, and Commitment: the Cosmic Significance of the Giving of the Torah and the Revelation at Sinai (Shabbat 88a-89a)”, final part here.
As an aside, unrelated to the above, I’ve published my Know What Not to Answer: A Systematic Critique of Rabbi Aaron Lopiansky’s Lecture Series ‘Da Ma She-Tashiv’ (Amazon Kindle / ebook Edition).
I recently excerpted parts of that work in a series, “Selections from my recently published 'Know What Not to Answer: A Systematic Critique of Rabbi Aaron Lopiansky’s Lecture Series "Da Ma She-Tashiv" '“, final part here.
The numbering I use is that of the Talmud’s, as per Wikipedia, “Ten Commandments“, section “Commandments text and numbering“, sub-section “Religious traditions“ (column “T”), screenshot of the relevant part of the table for our purposes:
For other traditional rabbinic interpretations of this Psalm, and these specific verses, compare Wikipedia, “Psalm 8“, section “Background and themes“, with slight adjustments:
According to the Midrash Tehillim, verses 5 through 10 in the Hebrew contain questions that the angels asked God as God was creating the world, referring to the righteous men of Israel:
"What is man that You are mindful of him"—referring to Abraham (see Genesis 19:29);
"and the son of man that You remember him"—referring to Abraham's son Isaac, who was born as a result of God remembering Sarah (ibid. 21:1) […]
"O YHWH, our Lord how glorious is Your name in all the earth"—thus the angels concluded, "Do what pleases You. Your glory is to sojourn with Your people and with Your children".
It's notable that this midrash interprets the Psalm, like our sugya, that it involves 'questions the angels asked God'—though in the midrash, the setting is the time of Creation, whereas in our sugya, it's the Giving of the Torah.
כסא כבודי - for protection.
זיו שכינתו - literally: “the radiance of his Shekhina”; on the term “ziv”, see my note in my previous piece.
This statement of R' Naḥum (should say: R' Tanḥum) is quoted elsewhere in the Talmud, see the Appendix in my previous piece.
See the Appendix at the end of this piece, for an expansion of this: “Appendix - Broader Literary Analysis of Moses’ Defense of Humanity’s Claim to the Torah“.
משא ומתן - that would lead to false oaths.
יצר הרע - Yetzer hara.
The same verses cited earlier, interpreted as spoken by the angels, when Moses went up to heaven to receive the Torah.
עלית למרום - I previously cited this as a probable source for the familiar Talmudic verbal phrase (עלה למרום) describing Moses' ascent to Heaven to receive the Torah.