Pt1 Thief-Catching, Corpulence, and Virility: Stories of R' Elazar ben Shimon and R' Yishmael ben Yosei (Bava Metzia 83b-84a)
This is the first part of a two-part series. The outline for the series follows.
Outline
R’ Elazar ben Shimon Challenges the Methods of a Roman Thief-Catcher (Psalms 104:20, 10:9)
R' Elazar ben Shimon's Advice on Identifying Thieves
R' Elazar ben Shimon's Appointment by the Romans as a Thief-Catcher
"Vinegar Son of Wine" or "Removing Thorns from the Vineyard"? The Debate Between R’ Yehoshua ben Korḥa and R’ Elazar ben Shimon on Handing Jews Over to Roman Authorities
R' Elazar ben Shimon and the Laundryman: A Tale of Moral Judgment, Regret, and Divine Validation
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3: Testing His Fat
R' Yishmael ben Yosei's Similar Experience and Elijah's Advice
The Corpulence of R' Elazar ben Shimon and R' Yishmael ben Yosei and the Roman Matron's Remark
Virility of R' Yishmael ben Yosei, R' Yoḥanan, and Rav Pappa
The Passage
R’ Elazar ben Shimon Challenges the Methods of a Roman Thief-Catcher (Psalms 104:20, 10:9)
R' Elazar son of R' Shimon (fl. c. late 2nd century CE in Eretz Yisrael), encountered an officer1 whose job was catching thieves.
He challenged the officer's methods, arguing that thieves are metaphorically (מתילי) like beasts (חיותא) hiding in the darkness—citing Psalms 104:20 or ibid. 10:9—and are thus difficult to discern.
He suggested the officer might mistakenly arrest the righteous instead of the wicked.
רבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון אשכח לההוא פרהגונא, דקא תפיס גנבי,
אמר ליה:
היכי יכלת להו?!
לאו כחיותא מתילי?
דכתיב: ״בו תרמש כל חיתו יער״?
איכא דאמרי:
מהאי קרא קאמר ליה: ״יארב במסתר, כאריה בסכה״.
דלמא שקלת צדיקי, ושבקת רשיעי?!
R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, found a certain officer [parhagavna] whose responsibility was to arrest thieves.
He said to the officer:
How are you able to arrest them?!
Aren’t they likened to beasts?
as it is written: “You make darkness and it is night, in which all the beasts of the forest creep forth” (Psalms 104:20)?
There are those who say that he said to him
a proof from this verse: “He lies in wait in a secret place as a lion in his lair, he lies in wait to catch the poor; he catches the poor when he draws him up in his net” (Psalms 10:9).
Since the wicked are so devious, perhaps you apprehend the righteous and leave the wicked alone?!
R' Elazar ben Shimon's Advice on Identifying Thieves
The officer replied that he was obligated to try to catch thieves, in accordance with the royal decree2 (even if his methods were flawed).
R' Elazar advised the officer to follow the following superior method for identifying thieves:
Go to a tavern3 in the fourth hour of the day (i.e. around 10am), and observe anyone who was drinking wine and dozing (מנמנם). He could then make the following reasonable calculation:
If the person was a young Torah scholar (צורבא מרבנן), it would be assumed they woke early to study (גרסיה).
If a manual laborer (פועל), he would either have already completed his work, or, if his work is at night, “he [already] flattened [metal foil]“.4
Only if the man was neither of those was he assumed to be a thief (having stayed up late to steal), and should be arrested.
אמר ליה: ומאי אעביד? הרמנא דמלכא הוא.
אמר:
תא אגמרך היכי תעביד.
עול בארבע שעי לחנותא,
כי חזית איניש דקא שתי חמרא
וקא נקיט כסא בידיה
וקא מנמנם,
שאול עילויה.
אי צורבא מרבנן הוא וניים – אקדומי קדים לגרסיה.
אי פועל הוא – קדים קא עביד עבידתיה,
ואי עבידתיה בליליא – רדודי רדיד.
ואי לא – גנבא הוא, ותפסיה.
The officer said to him: But what should I do? It is the king’s edict [harmana] that I must arrest thieves, and I am performing my job to the best of my ability.
R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, said to him:
Come and I will instruct you how you should do it.
At the fourth hour of the day enter the tavern.
When you see someone drinking wine,
holding his cup in his hand,
and dozing, inquire about his background.
If he is a Torah scholar and is dozing, assume that he rose early in the morning for his studies.
If he is a daytime laborer, assume that he rose early and performed his work.
And if his work is at night and no one heard him working, it is possible that this is because he draws copper wires, which is a form of labor that does not produce noise.
And if he is none of these, he is a thief, and you should arrest him, as it can be assumed that he was awake the previous night because he was stealing, and that is why he is now dozing off.
R' Elazar ben Shimon's Appointment by the Romans as a Thief-Catcher
The king's court, impressed by R' Elazar's advice, made him the officer in charge of arresting thieves, stating the aphorism:
“Let the crier (קריינא) of the letter be its messenger”5 (i.e. the one proclaiming the message should be the one to implement it).
אישתמע מילתא בי מלכא,
אמרו: קריינא דאיגרתא איהו ליהוי פרונקא.
אתיוה לרבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון, וקא תפיס גנבי ואזיל.
This matter of the advice of R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, was heard in the king’s palace.
The king’s ministers said: Let the reader of the letter be its messenger [parvanka], i.e., since R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, offered this advice, he should be the one to implement it.
They brought R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, to the authorities who appointed him to this task, and he proceeded to arrest thieves.
"Vinegar Son of Wine" or "Removing Thorns from the Vineyard"? The Debate Between R’ Yehoshua ben Korḥa and R’ Elazar ben Shimon on Handing Jews Over to Roman Authorities
R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa sent a message to R' Elazar harshly criticizing him, metaphorically greeting him as "vinegar, the son of wine" (implying that he was wicked—"vinegar"—in contrast to his righteous father—“wine”—R’ Shimon).6
R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa’s message went on to chastise R' Elazar for turning over (מוסר) Jewish people to the Roman authorities for punishment.7
In response to the criticism, R' Elazar metaphorically likened his work to removing thorns from a vineyard.
R' Yehoshua countered that only the owner of the vineyard (i.e. God) should remove the thorns (i.e. eliminate the wicked).
שלח ליה רבי יהושע בן קרחה:
חומץ בן יין!
עד מתי אתה מוסר עמו של אלהינו להריגה?!
שלח ליה: קוצים אני מכלה מן הכרם.
שלח ליה: יבא בעל הכרם, ויכלה את קוציו.
R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa sent R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, the following message:
You are vinegar, son of wine, i.e., you are wicked in comparison to your father, the righteous R' Shimon, just as vinegar is spoiled wine.
Until when will you inform on the nation of our God to be sentenced to execution by a gentile king’s court?!
R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, sent a message back to him: I am merely eradicating thorns from the vineyard, i.e., I am removing the wicked from the Jewish people.
R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa sent back to him: Let the Owner of the vineyard, i.e., God, come and eradicate His own thorns. It is not your place to do this.
פרהגונא. Jastrow interprets that this official would seize people specifically for angaria (“community service, impressment into public service“). On the institution of angaria—a Greek term used a number of times in the Talmud—see my extended note here.
פרהגבנא, פרהגונא m. (a Babylonian corrupt. of parangaria, v. פרהנגריא) the office of public service, sub. בעל the suprintendent of public labors, in gen. tax collector […]
B. Mets. 83b (=our sugya) אשכח לההוא פ׳ דמלכא וכ׳ Ms. M. (ed. פרהגונא only) he met the royal officer who was seizing thieves (persons without regular occupations) for the public service […]
And Jastrow, entry פרהנגריא:
(parangaria, v. אנגריא) a public service over and above that which one is bound to render, extra service (which is paid for).
הרמנא. Jastrow: “appointment to office, authority, royal patent, office, bureau“
The same expression is used in the talmudic passage in my piece here, where R' Shimon ben Ḥalafta’s concluded that ants have no king, reasoning that if they did, they would require a royal decree (הרמנא דמלכא) to execute one of their own.
See also the same expression used in Berakhot.58a.13, in a story where R’ Sheila ordered a man to be whipped for having sex (בעל) with a non-Jewish woman; the man subsequently informed on him (אכל ביה קורצי) to the king, accusing R’ Sheila of rendering judgments without the king's authorization (הרמנא דמלכא):
רבי שילא נגדיה לההוא גברא דבעל גויה.
אזל אכל ביה קורצי בי מלכא,
אמר: איכא חד גברא ביהודאי דקא דיין דינא בלא הרמנא דמלכא.
[…]
R’ Sheila ordered that a man who had relations with a gentile woman be flogged.
That man went to inform the king
and said: There is one man among the Jews who renders judgment without the king’s authority [harmana].
[…]
חנותא - literally: “store”.
For the usage of this term to specifically mean a venue that serves wine, see my piece here, Pt4, where, to retrieve their purses, R' Meir, R’ Yehuda, and R' Yosei dragged the innkeeper to a tavern (חנותא) to gave him wine to drink.
See also my piece here, for a story featuring a drinking venue, in the story of a woman married to a tavern owner (חנואה) using witchcraft to kill her ex-husband in the tavern:
ההוא גברא דגרשה לדביתהו.
(אזיל) אינסבה לחנואה.
כל יומא הוה אזיל ושתי חמרא.
הוה קא עבדא ליה כשפים
[…]
A certain man divorced his wife.
She went and married a shopkeeper who sold wine in his store.
Every day, the first husband would go and drink wine in that shop.
His ex-wife would perform witchcraft upon him
[…]
פרונקא - pronounced parwanaka.
פרוונקא, פרונקא m. (Pers[ian] parwânaḳ) letter-carrier, forerunner, messenger.
[…]
Snh. 82a, a. fr. (a proverbial expression) קריינא דאגרתא איהו ליהוי פ׳ let him who dictates the letter be the carrier, i.e. let him who gives the advice be its executor.
See Wiktionary, plwʾnk':
From Old Iranian. Akin to Iranian borrowings Jewish Babylonian Aramaic פַרְוָונְקָא (parwānqā, “guide; messenger”), Classical Syriac […] (parwānqā, “guide; messenger”), Classical Mandaic […] (parwānqā, “redeemer, savior”).
See Hebrew Wikipedia, חומץ, section כמטבע לשון, my translation:
"Vinegar the Son of Wine" is a common Hebrew idiom meaning "a wicked person, the son of a righteous person."
The origin of the phrase is a story found in the Talmud (=our sugya):
R’ Elazar the son of R’ Shimon, was known for capturing thieves, including Jewish ones, and handing them over to the Roman authorities. R’ Yehoshua ben Korḥa rebuked him, saying: "You are vinegar the son of wine"—that is, a wicked son of a righteous father. He questioned how Rabbi Elazar could dare to hand over Jewish individuals to the Romans, where they would ultimately face the death penalty.
Another reference to the term appears in the Talmud regarding the obligation to wait between eating meat and dairy. Mar Ukva referred to himself as ḥala bar ḥamra (vinegar the son of wine), contrasting himself with his father. While his father was stringent and waited a full day between eating meat and dairy, Mar Ukva followed a more lenient practice, waiting only a shorter period.
By the same pattern, the expressions "vinegar the son of vinegar," meaning a wicked person born to a wicked parent, and "wine the son of wine," meaning a righteous person born to a righteous parent, are also commonly used.
See Wikipedia, “Mesirah“:
Mesirah (or mesira, lit. 'to hand over') is the action in which one Jew reports the conduct of another Jew to a non-rabbinic authority in a manner and under the circumstances forbidden by rabbinic law.
This may not necessarily apply to reporting legitimate crimes to responsible authority, but it does apply to turning over a Jew to an abusive authority, or otherwise to a legitimate one who would punish the criminal in ways seen as excessive by the Jewish community. In any case, "excessive" punishment by non-Jews may be permissible if a precept of the Torah has been violated.
The term for an individual who commits mesirah is moser (Hebrew: מוסר) or mossur.
A person who repeatedly violates this law by informing on his fellow Jews is considered subject to din moser (lit. 'law of the informer'), which is analogous to din rodef in that both prescribe death for the offender, at least in theory.
According to some, in some circumstances the offender may be killed without warning.
The source of the ban comes from [tractate] Bava Kamma [in] the Babylonian Talmud.
The law was most likely instigated to ease Jewish life under Roman or Persian rule.
This law is discussed in Babylonian Talmud, Maimonides, and in Shulchan Aruch.
And see my piece yesterday, section “Appendix 3 - Treatment of Outsiders and Transgressors: Rules for Rescuing Non-Jews, Shepherds, Heretics, Informers, and Apostates (Avodah Zarah 26a-b = Tosefta Bava Metzia 2:13)“, citing a baraita that lists informers (מסורות) among the categories of people who may be killed, alongside heretics (מינין) and apostates (משומדים).
And see Bava_Kamma.117a.18-20 for an anecdote of Rav Kahana (a student of Rav, so c. first half of the 3rd century, רב כהנא (הראשון)) killing an informer extra-judicially, and consequently advised by Rav to flee Babylonia to Eretz Yisrael to escape consequences by the Persian (=Sasanian) authorities (I made slight adjustments to the ed. Steinsaltz translation and interpretation):
ההוא גברא דהוה בעי אחוויי אתיבנא דחבריה.
אתא לקמיה דרב,
אמר ליה: ״לא תחוי ולא תחוי!״
אמר ליה: ״מחוינא ומחוינא!״
יתיב רב כהנא קמיה דרב,
שמטיה לקועיה מיניה.
There was a certain man who desired to show another individual’s straw to the non-Jewish authorities, who would seize it.
He came before Rav,
who said to him: Do not show it and do not show it, i.e., you are absolutely prohibited from showing it.
The man said to him: I will show it and I will show it, i.e., I will certainly show it.
Rav Kahana was sitting before Rav,
and, hearing the man’s response, he dislodged (שמטיה) the man’s neck (קועיה) from him, i.e., he broke his neck and killed him.
קרי רב עילויה: ״בניך עלפו, שכבו בראש כל חוצות, כתוא מכמר״;
מה תוא זה, כיון שנפל במכמר – אין מרחמין עליו;
אף ממון של ישראל, כיון שנפל ביד גוים – אין מרחמין עליו.
Seeing Rav Kahana’s action, Rav read the following verse about him: “Your sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as an antelope in a net” (Isaiah 51:20).
Just as with regard to this antelope (תוא), once it falls into the net (מכמר), the hunter does not have mercy upon it,
so too with regard to the money of a Jew, once it falls into the hand of non-Jews (גוים), they do not have mercy upon him, i.e., the Jew.
Since non-Jews who seek a Jew’s money will kill him in order to seize the property, Rav Kahana acted appropriately when he broke the miscreant’s neck, as he protected the Jew’s property and, by extension, the Jew himself.
אמר ליה רב:
כהנא!
עד האידנא הוו פרסאי – דלא קפדי אשפיכות דמים,
והשתא איכא יוונאי – דקפדו אשפיכות דמים,
ואמרי ׳מרדין, מרדין׳.
קום סק לארעא דישראל,
Rav then said to Rav Kahana:
Kahana!
until now there were Persians (=Parthians, who ruled until 224 CE) [as rulers] who were not particular about bloodshed.
But now there are Greeks (=Sasanians, “Greeks” meaning Hellenistic-style governance) [as rulers] who are particular about bloodshed,
and they will say: Murder (מרדין - from Persian murdan, cognate with English murder), murder, and they will press charges against you.
Therefore, get up and ascend to Eretz Yisrael