Pt2 R’ Elazar ben Shimon: His Life and Afterlife (Bava Metzia 84b-85a)
This is the second and final part of a two-part series. Part 1 is here; the outline of the series can be found at Part 1.
Part 3: R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s relationship with R’ Elazar ben Shimon
R’ Yehuda HaNasi proposes to R’ Elazar b. Shimon’s widow; she rejects the offer using metaphor of sacred vs. profane vessel
שלח רבי לדבר באשתו,
שלחה ליה:
כלי שנשתמש בו קודש
ישתמש בו חול?!
תמן אמרין:
באתר דמרי ביתא תלא זייניה,
כולבא רעיא קולתיה תלא?!
The Talmud continues: After this incident, R’ Yehuda HaNasi sent a messenger to speak with the wife of R’ Elazar b. Shimon, and propose marriage.
She sent a message to him in response:
Shall a vessel used by someone sacred, i.e., R’ Elazar b. Shimon,
be used by someone who is, relative to him, profane?!1
There, in Eretz Yisrael, they say that she used the colloquial adage:
In the location where the master of the house hangs his sword,2
shall the contemptible shepherd hang his basket [kultei]?!
Widow asserts that R’ Elazar b. Shimon was greater than R’ Yehuda HaNasi in Torah and definitely in good deeds
שלח לה:
נהי דבתורה גדול ממני,
אבל במעשים טובים מי גדול ממני?!
שלחה ליה:
בתורה מיהא גדול ממך לא ידענא,
במעשים ידענא,
דהא קביל עליה יסורי.
R’ Yehuda HaNasi sent a message back to her:
Granted (נהי) that in Torah he was greater than I,
but was he greater than I in good deeds?!
She sent a message back to him:
Whether he was greater than you in Torah I do not know;
but I do know that he was greater than you in good deeds,
as he accepted afflictions upon himself.
Flashback: Young R’ Elazar b. Shimon and R’ Yehuda HaNasi studied together, impressing masters
בתורה מאי היא?
דכי הוו יתבי
רבן שמעון בן גמליאל
ורבי יהושע בן קרחה
אספסלי,
יתבי קמייהו
רבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון
ורבי
אארעא
The Talmud asks: With regard to Torah knowledge, what is the event that demonstrated the superiority of R’ Elazar b. Shimon, over R’ Yehuda HaNasi?
The Talmud answers: When
the leading rabbis of the generation, were sitting on benches [safselei] teaching Torah along with the other rabbis,
would sit before them the youthful pair
R’ Elazar b. Shimon,
and R’ Yehuda HaNasi
on the ground out of respect.
מקשו ומפרקו.
אמרי:
מימיהן אנו שותים
והם יושבים על גבי קרקע?!
עבדו להו ספסלי
אסקינהו
These two young students would engage in discussions with the rabbis, in which they would raise difficulties and answer them brilliantly.
Seeing the young scholars’ brilliance, the leading rabbis said:
From their waters we drink, i.e., we are learning from them,
and they are the ones sitting on the ground?!
Benches were prepared for R’ Elazar b. Shimon, and R’ Yehuda HaNasi,
and they were promoted4 to sit alongside the other rabbis.
Both promoted to benches, then demoted due to fathers’ concerns about evil eye; R’ Elazar b. Shimon becomes offended at being equated with R’ Yehuda HaNasi
אמר להן רבן שמעון בן גמליאל:
פרידה אחת יש לי ביניכם,
ואתם מבקשים לאבדה הימני?!
אחתוה לרבי
Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel said to the other rabbis present:
I have a single fledgling5 among you, i.e., my son R’ Yehuda HaNasi,
and you are seeking to take it from me?!
By promoting my son to such a prestigious position at such a young age, his chances of being adversely affected by the evil eye are greatly increased.
They demoted6 R’ Yehuda HaNasi to sit on the ground, at his father’s request.
אמר להן רבי יהושע בן קרחה:
מי שיש לו אב --
יחיה,
ומי שאין לו אב --
ימות?!
אחתוה נמי לרבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון.
חלש דעתיה,
אמר: קא חשביתו ליה כוותי?
R’ Yehoshua ben Korḥa said to the rabbis:
Should one who has a father to care for him, i.e., R’ Yehuda HaNasi,
be demoted so that he may live,
while the other one, who does not have a father to care for him, i.e., R’ Elazar b. Shimon,
should be allowed to die?!
Upon hearing his argument, the rabbis also demoted R’ Elazar b. Shimon, without explaining to him the reason for his demotion.
He became offended7
and said to them: You are equating (חשביתו) R’ Yehuda HaNasi to me, by demoting us together.
In fact, I am much greater than he.
Their relationship shifts from support to R’ Elazar preempting and dismissing R’ Yehuda HaNasi; Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel consoles R’ Yehuda HaNasi: “he is lion son of lion, you are lion son of fox”
(See footnote.)8
עד ההוא יומא --
כי הוה אמר רבי מילתא
הוה מסייע ליה רבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון
מכאן ואילך --
כי הוה אמר רבי ״יש לי להשיב״,
אמר ליה רבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון:
כך וכך יש לך להשיב,
זו היא תשובתך
השתא היקפתנו תשובות חבילות שאין בהן ממש
As a result of that incident, the relationship of R’ Elazar b. Shimon, with R’ Yehuda HaNasi changed:
Up until that day --
when R’ Yehuda HaNasi would state a matter of Torah,
R’ Elazar b. Shimon, would support him by citing proofs for his opinion.
From this point forward --
when they were discussing a subject and R’ Yehuda HaNasi would say: “I have an argument to respond”,
R’ Elazar b. Shimon, would preempt him by saying to him:
Such and such is what you have to respond,
and this is the refutation of your claim.
Now that you asked these questions, you have surrounded us with bundles (חבילות) of refutations that have no substance, i.e., you have forced us to give unnecessary answers.
R’ Elazar b. Shimon, would anticipate R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s comments and immediately dismiss them as having no value.
חלש דעתיה דרבי.
אתא אמר ליה לאבוה.
אמר ליה:
בני!
אל ירע לך,
שהוא --
ארי בן ארי
ואתה --
ארי בן שועל
[...]
R’ Yehuda HaNasi became offended.
He came and told his father what had transpired.
Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel said to him:
My son!
do not let his actions offend you,
as he (=R’ Eliezer b. Shimon)
is a lion, son of a lion (=R’ Shimon b. Yohai)
and you (=R’ Yehuda HaNasi)
are a lion, son of a fox.9
[...]
Part 4: R’ Elazar ben Shimon’s son
R’ Elazar’s son is beautiful but promiscuous; R’ Yehuda HaNasi redeems him, entrusts him to R’ Shimon ben Isi, and he becomes the sage R’ Yosei
איקלע רבי לאתריה דרבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון,
אמר להם: יש לו בן לאותו צדיק?
אמרו לו:
יש לו בן.
וכל זונה שנשכרת בשנים שוכרתו בשמנה
The Talmud continues discussing R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s relationship with R’ Elazar, son of R’ Shimon.
Once R’ Yehuda HaNasi arrived at the place of R’ Elazar, son of R’ Shimon.
He said to the locals: Does that righteous person have a son?
They said to him:
He has a son who is wayward,
and any prostitute who hires herself out to others for 2 coins hires him for 8, due to his handsomeness.
אתייה,
אסמכיה ברבי
ואשלמיה לרבי שמעון בן איסי בן לקוניא אחוה דאמיה.
Upon hearing this report, R’ Yehuda HaNasi resolved to extricate R’ Elazar’s son from his plight.
He brought him back with him,
ordained him (אסמכיה) as a Rabbi,
and gave him over (אשלמיה) to R’ Shimon ben Isi ben Lakonya (רבי שמעון בן איסי בן לקוניא), the brother of the boy’s mother, to teach him Torah.
His voice reminds R’ Yehuda HaNasi of his father
כל יומא הוה אמר: לקרייתי אנא אזיל.
אמר ליה:
חכים עבדו יתך,
וגולתא דדהבא פרסו עלך,
ורבי קרו לך,
ואת אמרת לקרייתי אנא אזיל?!
Each day, the boy would say: I am going back to my town (קרייתי), because it was difficult for him to study.
R’ Shimon ben Isi ben Lakonya said to him:
You have been made wise,
and a golden cloak (גולתא) has been spread over you when you were ordained,
and you are called by the title “Rabbi”,
and yet you say: I am going back to my town?!
אמר ליה: מומי עזובה דא.
כי גדל
אתא יתיב במתיבתא דרבי.
שמעיה לקליה,
אמר: הא קלא דמי לקליה דרבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון.
אמרו ליה: בריה הוא.
The boy said to him: I vow [momei] that this thought of leaving is now abandoned, i.e., I will stay and improve my ways.
When the boy matured and became a Torah scholar,
he came and sat in the academy of R’ Yehuda HaNasi.
R’ Yehuda HaNasi heard his voice
and said: This voice is similar to the voice of R’ Elazar, son of R’ Shimon.
Those who were present said to him: It is his son.
(Proverbs 11:30)
קרי עליה:
״פרי צדיק עץ חיים
ולקח נפשות חכם״
״פרי צדיק עץ חיים״ –
זה רבי יוסי ברבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון
״ולקח נפשות חכם״ –
זה רבי שמעון בן איסי בן לקוניא
R’ Yehuda HaNasi read the verse about him:
“The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life;
and he that is wise wins souls” (Proverbs 11:30).
The Talmud explains:
“the fruit of the righteous,”
this is referring to R’ Yosei, son of R’ Elazar, son of R’ Shimon,
who was the son of a righteous individual and became a great scholar in his own right.
“And he that is wise wins souls,”
this is referring to R’ Shimon ben Isi ben Lakonya,
who successfully helped R’ Yosei reach his potential.
When R’ Yosei dies, a serpent blocks access to his father’s cave. A bat kol explains that R’ Elazar’s merit was his suffering in the cave, which R’ Yosei did not share.
כי נח נפשיה
(אמטוהו) [אמטיוה] למערתא דאבוה.
הוה הדרא לה עכנא למערתא.
אמר ליה:
עכנא עכנא!
פתח פיך ויכנס בן אצל אביו.
לא פתחא להו.
כסבורים העם לומר שזה גדול מזה.
יצתה בת קול ואמרה:
לא מפני שזה גדול מזה,
אלא
זה היה בצער מערה,
וזה לא היה בצער מערה.
When this R’ Yosei died, he was brought to his father’s cave for burial.
A serpent encircled the entrance of the cave, denying any access.
Those present said to it:
Serpent, serpent!
Open your mouth, so that a son may enter next to his father.
The serpent did not open its mouth for them.10
The people there thought that R’ Yosei was denied burial alongside his father because this one, R’ Elazar, son of R’ Shimon, was greater than that one, R’ Yosei.
A bat kol emerged and said:
It is not because this one is greater than that one;
rather, it is because
this one, R’ Elazar, experienced the suffering of the cave,11
while that one, i.e., R’ Yosei, did not experience suffering of the cave.
A similar redemption story occurs with R’ Tarfon’s grandson, who is also rescued from disgrace by R’ Yehuda HaNasi, potentially through a marriage offer.
איקלע רבי לאתריה דרבי טרפון,
אמר להו:
יש לו בן לאותו צדיק
שהיה מקפח את בניו?
The Talmud relates a similar incident:
Once R’ Yehuda HaNasi arrived at the place of R’ Tarfon.
He said to the townspeople:
Does that righteous person, R’ Tarfon, have a son?
As he would hit12 his children
אמרו לו:
בן אין לו,
בן בת יש לו,
וכל זונה שנשכרת בשנים שוכרתו בשמנה
They said to him:
He does not have a son,
but he has a grandson, a son from his daughter,
and every prostitute who is hired for 2 coins hires him for 8.13
אתיוה לקמיה,
אמר ליה:
אי הדרת בך –
יהיבנא לך ברתאי
The townspeople brought R’ Tarfon’s grandson before R’ Yehuda HaNasi,
who said to him:
If you repent from your evil ways —
I will give you my daughter in marriage.14
הדר ביה.
איכא דאמרי:
נסבה וגירשה.
איכא דאמרי:
לא נסבה כלל, כדי שלא יאמרו בשביל זו חזר זה.
He repented and became a righteous individual.
There are those who say that
he married R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s daughter and subsequently divorced her.
There are those who say that
he did not marry her at all, so that it would not be said about him: It was for the sake of that woman that this man repented.
Appendix 1 - R’ Yehuda HaNasi - There are three modest people: Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel, the Sons of Beteira, and Jonathan son of Saul
היינו דאמר רבי:
שלשה ענוותנין הן,
ואלו הן:
אבא,
ובני בתירה,
ויונתן בן שאול.
The Talmud concludes: This incident is the background to a statement which R’ Yehuda HaNasi said:
There are three prototypical modest15 people,
and they are:
Father, i.e., Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel;
the sons of Beteira (בני בתירה);
Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel
רבן שמעון בן גמליאל –
הא דאמרן
The Talmud discusses each case:
The incident revealing the modesty of Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel --
is that which we just said, as he referred to himself modestly as a fox.
The sons of Beteira
בני בתירה --
דאמר מר:
הושיבוהו בראש
ומינוהו לנשיא עליהן
The sons of Beteira were exceptionally modest —
as they served in the position of Nasi and yet abdicated their positions in favor of Hillel when he emigrated from Babylonia to Eretz Yisrael.
As the Master said:
The sons of Beteira, upon recognizing that Hillel was a superior expert in halakha, seated him at the head
and appointed him Nasi over them (see Pesaḥim 66a).
Jonathan, son of Saul
יונתן בן שאול --
דקאמר ליה לדוד:
״ואתה תמלך על ישראל
ואני אהיה לך למשנה״.
Jonathan, son of Saul was extremely modest —
as he said to David:
“And you shall be king over Israel,
and I shall be second to you” (I Samuel 23:17),
despite the fact that his father, Saul, was the current king.
Appendix 2 - R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s suffering
R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s 13 years of afflictions: kidney stones and scurvy
Inspired by R’ Elazar’s suffering, R’ Yehuda HaNasi accepts afflictions.
אמר רבי:
חביבין יסורין.
קבל עליה תליסר שני:
שית בצמירתא,
ושבע (בצפרנא) [בצפדינא],
ואמרי לה:
שבעה בצמירתא,
ושית (בצפרנא).
§ The Talmud returns to the previous incident.
When he heard that the greatness of R’ Elazar, son of R’ Shimon, was due to his suffering, R’ Yehuda HaNasi said to himself: Afflictions are evidently precious.
He accepted 13 years of afflictions upon himself:
6 years of stones in the kidneys (צמירתא)
and 7 years of scurvy [tzfarna / tzafdina].
And some say:
it was 7 years of stones in the kidneys
and 6 years of scurvy..
R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s pain is so intense it outpaces the roar of his livestock.
אהורייריה דבי רבי הוה עתיר משבור מלכא.
כד הוה רמי כיסתא לחיותא
הוה אזיל קלא בתלתא מילי.
הוה מכוין דרמי בההיא שעתא דעייל רבי לבית הכסא,
ואפילו הכי (מ)עבר ליה קליה לקלייהו
ושמעו ליה נחותי ימא.
The Talmud relates: The stableman [ahuriyareih] of the house of R’ Yehuda HaNasi was wealthier than King Shapur of Persia, due to R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s abundant livestock.
When the stableman would place fodder (כיסתא) before the livestock,
the sound of their lowing would travel the distance of 3 mil.
He would calculate the right moment so that he would place the fodder before the animals at precisely that time when R’ Yehuda HaNasi entered the latrine, so that the lowing of the animals would drown out R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s screams of pain.
But even so, R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s voice was so loud that it overcame the sound of the livestock,
and even sailors (נחותי ימא) heard it out at sea.
On a woman as metaphorically a man’s “vessel”, compare elsewhere in the Talmud, in my “Talmudic Interpretations of the Book of Esther: Esther 1:10-14 (Megillah 12b)“, section “The Debate at the Banquet Over Which Ethnic Group Has the Most Beautiful Women“, where I summarize:
[Ahasuerus] asserted that “the vessel that I use” (i.e., my wife, Vashti), was neither but was Chaldean.
And see Sanhedrin.22b.3:
אמר רב שמואל בר אוניא, משמיה דרב:
אשה גולם היא,
ואינה כורתת ברית אלא למי שעשאה כלי,
שנאמר:
״כי בעליך עשיך
ה׳ צבאות שמו״.
Rav Shmuel bar Unya says in the name of Rav:
A woman is raw material (גולם), like a vessel that has not been completed,
and makes a covenant (כורתת ברית), becoming truly connected, only to the one who made her a vessel through her first act of sex,
as it is stated:
“For your Maker is your husband,
YHWH of hosts is His name” (Isaiah 54:5).
זייניה - literally: “weapon”. Possibly a euphemism for a phallus.
R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s father.
אסקינהו - literally: “they raised them up”.
פרידה.
This same idiom (“a single pereida”, to refer to a beloved child), is found as well in the Part 1 of this series, in section “R’ Shimon ben Yoḥai appears requesting burial of his “single fledgling”.
אחתוה - literally: “they lowered him”.
On the physical repositioning of a participant’s seat in a lecture—raising or lowering its level, or moving it forward or backward—as an indicator of status and hierarchy, compare my “Rav Kahana vs. R’ Yoḥanan, Babylonia vs. Eretz Yisrael: Rav Kahana’s Flight, Resurrection, and Recognition (Bava Kamma 117a-b)”, sections “Rav Kahana Seven Silences and consequent Seven Demotions” and “Rav Kahana Resumes His Challenges; He is restored to the front row“, where I summarize:
Rav Kahana is seated in the front row, but in deference to Rav’s charge, he does not raise any objections to R’ Yoḥanan’s statements.
Each silence leads to his demotion by one row, until he reaches the back.
R’ Yoḥanan concludes: “The lion has become a fox.”
Rav Kahana then prays that these 7 demotions substitute for the 7 years he was instructed to remain silent.
He asks R’ Yoḥanan to repeat the lesson and begins challenging him effectively.
He is restored to the front row.
Unable to respond to Rav Kahana’s questions, they remove R’ Yoḥanan’s cushions one after another—symbolically lowering him—until he sits on the floor.
חלש דעתיה - literally: “his mind was weakened”; this is the typical Talmudic idiom for “he was offended”.
For the trope of shifting patterns in rabbinic Torah debates in the study hall, see ibid., in “Rav Kahana vs. R’ Yoḥanan”.
And see also in my “Pt2 R’ Shimon’s Flight from the Romans, Hiding, and Return: A Story of Persecution, Miracles, and Retribution (Shabbat 33b-34a)“, section “Part 2: The Cost of Scholarly Greatness: R’ Pineḥas ben Ya’ir’s Lament and R’ Shimon’s Rise to Intellectual Mastery Through Suffering“, where I summarize:
R’ Pineḥas ben Ya’ir cried and lamented (אוי) seeing him in such a state, but R’ Shimon reassured him, saying that his suffering had led to his current intellectual greatness:
As initially, R’ Pineḥas would answer (מפרק) R’ Shimon’s questions (מקשי) with twelve responses, but eventually, R’ Shimon far surpassed him: not only was he now the one answering the questions, but he would respond with twice as many responses as R’ Pineḥas previously would—responding with twenty-four answers to R’ Pineḥas’s questions.
And see also in the extended story after this one (in our extended macro-sugya), “The Beauty and the Bandit: The Talmudic Tragedy of R’ Yoḥanan and Reish Lakish (Bava Metzia 84a)”, section “R’ Elazar ben Pedat Fails to Fill the Void“, where I summarize:
R’ Elazar ben Pedat sits before R’ Yoḥanan and, rather than challenging him, simply affirms his statements by citing supporting baraitot.
But this does not satisfy R’ Yoḥanan. He protests that Reish Lakish would raise 24 objections to each statement, forcing him to refine his position with 24 responses. That process, he says, led to real halakhic growth (רווחא שמעתא). Mere agreement, by contrast, adds nothing.
Self-deprecatingly referring to himself as a lowly “fox".
Ed. Steinsaltz explains:
R’ Elazar b. Shimon’s father, R’ Shimon b. Yohai, was a renowned Sage, and therefore R’ Elazar b. Shimon’s sagacity is not surprising
For the contrast of lion vs fox, as metaphors for intellectually great vs not, see ibid., in “Rav Kahana vs. R’ Yoḥanan”. “The lion has become a fox.”
Ed. Steinsaltz then adds:
In any event, this incident demonstrates the superiority of R’ Elazar, son of R’ Shimon, to R’ Yehuda HaNasi with regard to knowledge of Torah.
The Talmud then goes on to riff on the idea of humility in general, I quote this at the end, in “Appendix 1 - R’ Yehuda HaNasi - There are three modest people: Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel, the Sons of Beteira, and Jonathan son of Saul“.
See the exact same occurrence in Part 1 of this series, at the burial of R’ Elazar b. Shimon, and my note there.
Ed. Steinsaltz explains:
R’ Elazar, son of R’ Shimon, suffered with his father for thirteen years in a cave while hiding from the Romans (see Shabbat 33b).
On this story, see my two-part series, “R’ Shimon’s Flight from the Romans, Hiding, and Return: A Story of Persecution, Miracles, and Retribution (Shabbat 33b-34a)“, final part here (cited also in Part 1 of this series, on section “R’ Shimon ben Yoḥai appears requesting burial of his “single fledgling”“).
מקפח.
Ed. Steinsaltz gives the traditional explanation:
R’ Tarfon was wont to take oaths by the lives of his children (see Oholot 16:1).
See the exact same line earlier, in section “R’ Elazar’s son is beautiful but promiscuous“.
See the similar trope with R’ Yohanan and Reish Lakish, in ibid. “The Beauty and the Bandit: The Talmudic Tragedy of R’ Yoḥanan and Reish Lakish (Bava Metzia 84a)”, section “Reish Lakish’s Turn to Torah”, where I summarize:
R’ Yoḥanan promised [Reish Lakish] his sister [in marriage] if he returned to “teaching” (אורייתא - i.e. Torah).
Reish Lakish accepted, lost his physical strength, and was trained by R’ Yoḥanan into a leading sage.
ענוותנין.
Compare the usage of this term also with regards to Hillel (R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s direct ancestor, and the first nasi), in my “Pt2 Hillel’s Three Converts: Lessons in Patience, the Oral Torah, and the Golden Rule (Shabbat 31a)“, section “Part 3“, where I summarize:
He then came to Hillel, praising his patience and blessing him for guiding him to join the Shekhina: “Hillel the patient (ענוותן)! May blessings rest upon your head! As you brought me ‘under the wings of the Shekhina’.”
Note that the Talmud frequently goes out of its way to emphasize that great Jewish leaders ought to be—and in fact were—humble. This is especially stressed with regards to the Patriarchate, including Hillel, Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel, and R’ Yehuda HaNasi. See my discussion of this elsewhere.