Pt2 Thief-Catching, Corpulence, and Virility: Stories of R' Elazar ben Shimon and R' Yishmael ben Yosei (Bava Metzia 83b-84a)
This is the second and final part of a two-part series. Part 1 is here; the outline for the series can be found at Part 1.
R' Elazar ben Shimon and the Laundryman: A Tale of Moral Judgment, Regret, and Divine Validation
Part 1
A laundryman (כובס) insulted R' Elazar son of R' Shimon by calling him "vinegar, son of wine."1
Interpreting this as insolence2 and evidence of the man's wickedness (רשיעא), R' Elazar reported him to the authorities, leading to the laundryman's arrest.
Once his anger subsided, R' Elazar regretted his decision and tried to ransom (לפרוקיה) the man, but he failed.
Reflecting on the situation, he quoted Proverbs 21:23, lamenting that the laundryman could have avoided his fate by “guarding his words”.
Ultimately, the laundryman was executed,3 and R' Elazar stood beneath the gallows, weeping in sorrow.
יומא חד פגע ביה ההוא כובס,
קרייה ״חומץ בן יין״.
אמר: מדחציף כולי האי – שמע מינה רשיעא הוא.
אמר להו: תפסוה.
תפסוה.
לבתר דנח דעתיה, אזל בתריה , ולא מצי.
קרי עליה: ״שמר פיו ולשונו, שמר מצרות נפשו״.
זקפוה.
קם תותי זקיפא, וקא בכי.
The Gemara relates: One day, a certain laundryman met R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon,
and called him vinegar, son of wine.
R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, said: From the fact that this man acted so insolently by vilifying a Torah scholar, one can conclude that he is a wicked person.
He told the authorities: Arrest that man.
They arrested him and condemned him to death.
After his mind settled, i.e., when his anger abated, R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, regretted his hasty decision. He went after the laundryman in order to ransom him and save him from execution, but he was unable to do so.
He read the verse about him: “Whoever keeps his mouth and his tongue, keeps his soul from troubles” (Proverbs 21:23), i.e., had the laundryman not issued his derogatory comment he would have been spared this fate.
Ultimately, they hanged the laundryman.
R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, stood beneath the gallows and wept.
Part 2
Witnesses reassured R' Elazar, revealing that the laundryman was indeed a grievously wicked person: He and his son were guilty of the egregious sin of having sex with a betrothed young woman on Yom Kippur.4
This affirmation led R' Elazar to feel validated in his moral judgment. He expressed confidence in the integrity of his innards,5 and believed they were untainted, symbolizing his righteousness, poetically saying:
"Rejoice (שישו), my innards! For if your suspicions6 are so accurate, your certainties must be even more reliable. I am confident (מובטח) that that worm and maggot7 will not affect you (i.e. my righteousness will protect me from decay after death)".
אמרו ליה:
רבי!
אל ירע בעיניך
שהוא ובנו בעלו נערה מאורסה ביום הכפורים.
הניח ידו על בני מעיו
אמר:
שישו בני מעי, שישו!
ומה ספיקות שלכם כך, ודאות שלכם – על אחת כמה וכמה.
מובטח אני בכם, שאין רמה ותולעה שולטת בכם.
Those who were present said to him:
Our teacher,
let it not be bad in your eyes that you caused his death,
as this laundryman was a wholly wicked person; you should know that he and his son both engaged in intercourse with a betrothed young woman on Yom Kippur.
Upon hearing this, R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, placed his hand upon his belly, over his innards,
and said:
Rejoice, my innards, rejoice!
If your mere suspicions are so accurate, all the more so your certainties must be correct. If the condemnation of this man based upon the suspicions raised by his insolence proved to be correct, the identification of thieves in accordance with logical reasoning must certainly be accurate.
I am assured about you, my innards, that worm and maggot will not affect you, which is a sign of a completely righteous person.
Part 3: Testing His Fat Via Stomach Surgery and Leaving in Sun
Still, R' Elazar ben Shimon felt unsettled (לא מייתבא דעתיה) and sought to verify his righteousness.
He drank a sedative,8 and was brought to a marble house where surgeries were performed. There, they cut open his stomach, and baskets (דיקולי) of fat were removed from his belly.
The fat, left in the hot summer (תמוז ואב) sun, miraculously did not decay (proving to him that he was wholly righteous).
Reflecting on this, he recited Psalms 16:9: “my flesh (בשרי) also dwells in safety“ (i.e. doesn’t decompose).
ואפילו הכי, לא מייתבא דעתיה.
אשקיוה סמא דשינתא
ועיילוה לביתא דשישא
וקרעו לכריסיה.
הוו מפקי מיניה דיקולי דיקולי דתרבא
ומותבי בשמשא בתמוז ואב
ולא מסרחי.
[...]
קרי אנפשה: ״אף בשרי ישכן לבטח״.
Nevertheless, his mind was not calmed. He decided to test himself.
He arranged for people to give him a sedative to drink,
and they brought him into a house of marble, where surgeries were performed,
and cut open his belly.
They removed baskets upon baskets of fat from it,
placed them in the hot sun in the summer months of Tammuz and Av,
and the fat did not putrefy. In this manner, R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, received proof that his decisions were correct and that he was a wholly righteous individual.
[...]
R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, read the verses about himself: “I have set the Lord always before me…therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; my flesh also dwells in safety” (Psalms 16:8–9).
R' Yishmael ben Yosei's Similar Experience and Elijah's Advice
R' Yishmael son of R' Yosei had a similar situation (arresting thieves under the king’s orders).
Elijah confronted him, rebuking him for giving over members of “God's nation” (עמו של אלהינו) to execution (הריגה).
R' Yishmael ben Yosei explained that he was following the king's orders.9
Elijah reminded him of what his father (R’ Yosei) had done: fled to Asia [Minor] (אסיא), and advised R' Yishmael to flee to Laodicea.10
ואף רבי ישמעאל ברבי יוסי מטא כי האי מעשה לידיה.
פגע ביה אליהו,
אמר ליה: עד מתי אתה מוסר עמו של אלהינו להריגה?!
אמר ליה: מאי אעביד? הרמנא דמלכא הוא!
אמר ליה: אבוך ערק לאסיא, את ערוק ללודקיא.
The Gemara relates: And a similar incident also occurred to R' Yishmael, son of R' Yosei, i.e., he too was appointed head officer.
Elijah the prophet encountered him
and said to him: Until when will you inform on the nation of our God to be sentenced to execution?!
R' Yishmael, son of R' Yosei, said to Elijah: What should I do? It is the king’s edict that I must obey.
Elijah said to him: Faced with this choice, your father fled to Asia. You should flee to Laodicea rather than accept this appointment.
The Corpulence of R' Elazar ben Shimon and R' Yishmael ben Yosei and the Roman Matron's Remark
The Talmud recounts that the sages R' Yishmael ben Yosei and R' Elazar ben Shimon were so obese that oxen (בקרא דתורי) could pass under their bellies without touching them.
The excessive obesity of Rabbis Elazar and Yishmael led to a Roman matron (מטרוניתא) questioning the paternity of their children (due to their seeming inability to have sex and father children).
In response, they said their wives' bellies were even larger. The matron said that “all the more so” (כל שכן) you shouldn’t be able to have sex.
Two explanations are offered:
They cited the biblical verse "For as the man is, so is his strength" (Judges 8:21; to suggest proportionality of their genitals),
They asserted that “love compresses the flesh” (enabling sex despite their obesity).
כי הוו מקלעי רבי ישמעאל ברבי יוסי ורבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון בהדי הדדי,
הוה עייל בקרא דתורי בינייהו, ולא הוה נגעה בהו.
אמרה להו ההיא מטרוניתא: בניכם אינם שלכם.
אמרו לה: שלהן גדול משלנו.
כל שכן.
איכא דאמרי: הכי אמרו לה: ״כי כאיש גבורתו״.
איכא דאמרי: הכי אמרו לה: ״אהבה דוחקת את הבשר״.
[...]
With regard to these Sages, the Gemara adds: When R' Yishmael, son of R' Yosei, and R' Elazar, son of R' Shimon, would meet each other,
it was possible for a pair of oxen to enter and fit between them, under their bellies, without touching them, due to their excessive obesity.
A certain Roman noblewoman [matronita] once said to them: Your children are not really your own, as due to your obesity it is impossible that you engaged in intercourse with your wives.
They said to her: Theirs, i.e., our wives’ bellies, are larger than ours.
She said to them: All the more so you could not have had intercourse.
There are those who say that this is what they said to her: “For as the man is, so is his strength” (Judges 8:21), i.e., our sexual organs are proportionate to our bellies.
There are those who say that this is what they said to her: Love compresses the flesh.
[...]
Virility of R' Yishmael ben Yosei, R' Yoḥanan, and Rav Pappa
R' Yoḥanan describes the size of R' Yishmael's organ11 as being like a nine-kav jug.
Rav Pappa describes R' Yoḥanan's organ as either a five or three-kav jug.
The Talmud describes Rav Pappa’s own as being as large as baskets (דקורי) of Harpanya.12
אמר רבי יוחנן: איבריה דרבי ישמעאל [ברבי יוסי] כחמת בת תשע קבין.
אמר רב פפא:
איבריה דרבי יוחנן כחמת בת חמשת קבין,
ואמרי לה: בת שלשת קבין.
דרב פפא גופיה כי דקורי דהרפנאי.
The Gemara continues discussing the bodies of these Sages: R' Yoḥanan said: The organ of R' Yishmael, son of R' Yosei, was the size of a jug of nine kav.
Rav Pappa said:
The organ of R' Yoḥanan was the size of a jug of five kav,
and some say it was the size of a jug of three kav.
Rav Pappa himself had a belly like the baskets [dikurei] made in Harpanya.
The same line used by by R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa when critiquing R' Elazar ben Shimon, see the previous section, in Part 1.
זקפוה. See Jastrow:
1) to put up, rear, erect, raise (arms, head, etc.) […]
2) to stand erect […]
3) to hang up. […]
Part. pass. זקיף hanged. B. Mets. 59b
It may also mean crucifixion, “a method of capital punishment in which the condemned is tied or nailed to a large wooden cross, beam or stake and left to hang until eventual death. It was used as a punishment by the Persians, Carthaginians, and Romans, among others.“ (Of course, “[Jesus’] death is the most prominent example of crucifixion in history“.)
בעלו נערה מאורסה ביום הכפורים.
Sex with a betrothed young woman on Yom Kippur is considered the quintessential worst sin in the Talmud. Compare also my piece ““Today is Yom Kippur, and several virgins had sex in Neharde’a”: Anecdotes of Sinning on Yom Kippur (Yoma 19b-20a)“, and my extended note there.
בני מעיו; representing his moral intuition; compare the modern English expression “gut feelings”.
ספיקות - literally: “uncertainties, doubts”.
רמה ותולעה. This expression, referring to maggots decomposing a corpse, is a common one in talmudic literature. It is based on the biblical verse in Job.25.6:
אף כי־אנוש רמה
ובן־אדם תולעה
How much less man, a worm (רמה)
The son-of-man, a maggot (תולעה)
See Avot.3.1:
עקביא בן מהללאל אומר:
הסתכל בשלשה דברים, ואי אתה בא לידי עברה.
דע
מאין באת,
ולאן אתה הולך,
ולפני מי אתה עתיד לתן דין וחשבון.
מאין באת? מטפה סרוחה,
ולאן אתה הולך? למקום עפר רמה ותולעה.
ולפני מי אתה עתיד לתן דין וחשבון? לפני מלך מלכי המלכים הקדוש ברוך הוא:
Akabyah ben Mahalalel said:
Gaze (הסתכל - i.e. mark well) at three things and you will not come to sin:
know
from where you come,
and where you are going,
and before whom you are destined to give an account and reckoning (דין וחשבון)
From where do you come? From a putrid drop (טפה סרוחה - i.e. semen)
Where are you going? To a place of dust, of worm and of maggot (רמה ותולעה)
Before whom you are destined to give an account and reckoning? Before the King of the kings of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He.
And in Berakhot.24b.9, prayer for one who flatulates (מתעטש - literally “sneezes”, a euphemism):
רבונו של עולם!
יצרתנו נקבים נקבים חלולים חלולים,
גלוי וידוע לפניך חרפתנו וכלימתנו בחיינו
ובאחריתנו רמה ותולעה
Master of the universe!
You have formed us with many orifices (נקבים) and cavities (חלולים )
our disgrace (חרפתנו) and shame (כלימתנו) in life are clear and evident before You,
as is our destiny with maggots and worms (רמה ותולעה), and so we should not be judged harshly.
And Bava_Batra.17a.5:
תנו רבנן:
שבעה לא שלט בהן רמה ותולעה,
ואלו הן:
אברהם,
יצחק
ויעקב,
משה,
אהרן
ומרים,
ובנימין בן יעקב.
The Sages taught:
There were seven people over whom the worm and the maggot had no sway,
and they are:
Abraham,
Isaac,
and Jacob,
Moses,
Aaron
and Miriam,
and Benjamin, son of Jacob.
סמא דשינתא - literally: “a drug for sleep”.
הרמנא דמלכא. The same response as the unnamed person rebuked by R’ Elazar ben Shimon, in Part 1.
לודקיא; also in Asia Minor, instead of continuing in this role.
איבריה - literally “limb”, a euphemism.
Steinsaltz interprets this to refer to Rav Pappa’s “belly”, but the more straightforward reading is that it’s referring to his organ, as with the previous.
One major traditional talmudic biographer says that this Rav Pappa is specifically Rav Pappa bar Abba (רב פפא בר אבא - see the quote there from Yuhasin), who was famous for this weight, see Bava_Kamma.10b.2:
מתקיף לה רב פפא:
והא איכא הא דתניא:
חמשה שישבו על ספסל אחד, ולא שברוהו,
ובא אחד, וישב עליו, ושברו –
האחרון חייב.
ואמר רב פפא: כגון פפא בר אבא.
Rav Pappa objects:
But isn’t there also that which is taught in a baraita:
With regard to a case in which five people were sitting on one bench (ספסל - from Latin) and it did not break,
and then one additional person came and sat upon it and broke it with his added weight,
the latter individual is liable for all the damage.
And Rav Pappa said by way of clarification that this applies in a case where the last individual to sit down was as heavy as Pappa bar Abba.
In general, although not explicit, there seems to be an implicit assumption made in the sugya that weight and penis size are correlated. This is a typical intuitive assumption.