Talmudic Apologetics: A Cycle of Dialogues with Roman Pagans Regarding God and Idols (Avodah Zarah 54b-55a) - Pt. 1
Pt. 1 contains an introduction and the first two dialogues, pt. 2 will contain the remaining four dialogues. See also my previous pieces on Jewish apologetics: “Ultra-Orthodox Apologetics: Some Notes on R’ Ahron Lopianski’s Lecture Series ‘Da Ma Shetashiv’” (June 26, 2023); “The Kuzari Argument: A central claim in Ultra-Orthodox Apologetics” (July 13, 2023). And see my recent piece where I mention another response to the ‘heretic’ (מין - min) in the Talmud, with a discussion of that term: “The Divine Providence of Galut: A Talmudic Perspective on the Jewish Diaspora As A Shield Against Genocide of the Jewish Nation” (December 17, 2023)
Illustration by DALL-E. Description: “An illustration depicting a scene from the Talmud, specifically from Avodah Zarah 54b-55a. The scene is set in ancient times, showing a group of Jewish scholars engaged in a philosophical dialogue with Roman pagans. The setting is a classic Roman forum with columns and open spaces, symbolizing a place of debate and learning. The Jewish scholars are dressed in traditional robes, earnestly discussing theological concepts about God and idols with the Roman pagans, who are wearing togas. The atmosphere is one of respectful debate and intellectual exchange, with an ancient scroll or text visible in the hands of one of the scholars.“
The structure of this sugya is tightly organized, comprising six narratives. Each begins with an individual posing a philosophical query to a Sage about the existence or apparent influence of idolatry. In three of these stories, the Sage responds with a parable, introduced with the phrase "I will relate a parable to you. To what is this matter comparable? To [...]” (אמשול לך משל למה הדבר דומה).
Following the conclusion of each narrative, three stories are concluded with a reference to Rabbi X's teachings, indicated by "And this aligns with what Rabbi X says [...]" (והיינו דאמר).
Some of the philosophical reasonings presented are early forms of Rationalism, like Rabbi Akiva's argument about coincidence, which will be further discussed in the next section of this analysis. Notably, these Talmudic aggadic texts rely less on biblical quotations than usual, likely because the pagan audience did not recognize the authority of the Bible. Consequently, the Sages frequently use parables to illustrate their points.
The sugya
Avodah Zarah 54b (section # 12) - 55a (section # 10).
Here’s the outline, there are a total of six dialogues, which I’ve numbered:
Outline of Dialogues
Mishnah - “They asked the Jewish Sages who were in Rome”
Talmud - Beraita - “Philosophers asked the Jewish Sages who were in Rome”
Talmud - “A certain philosopher asked Rabban Gamliel”
Talmud - “Agrippas the general asked Rabban Gamliel”
Talmud - “Zunin said to Rabbi Akiva”
Talmud - “Rava bar Rav Yitzḥak said to Rav Yehuda”
Textual point: Any time in the Hebrew text that avodat kochavim is stated, it should be replaced with avoda zara. The change is due to the censors. See Hillel Gershuni in his Hebrew article “To all the students of the Talmud Bavli who do not wish to follow the Christian censor.” (לכל לומדי התלמוד הבבלי, שאין חפצם לילך אחר הצנזור הנוצרי / הלל גרשוני).
Another linguistic point regarding the names of the interlocutors. They are all Greek names or terms:
Philosoph (פלוסופין - philosophin) - cognate with modern English philosopher. Philosophy - Wikipedia > “Etymology”: “The word philosophy comes from the ancient Greek words φίλος (philos: 'love') and σοφία (sophia: 'wisdom') [...] Before the modern age, the term philosophy was used in a wide sense. It included most forms of rational inquiry, such as the individual sciences, as its subdisciplines.”
“Zunin” (זונין) stems from the name Zenon, derived from the theonym Zeus.
“Agrippas“ (אגריפס) - this name was used by two Herodian kings of Judea (the person in this sugya is much later, and unrelated).
Summary and Analysis
The Talmudic sugya addresses the issue of idolatry and why God doesn't eliminate it, despite being against His will. It unfolds in a series of dialogues and parables. Overall, the sugya argues that the world operates on its natural course, independent of idolatry. While God disapproves of idol worship, He allows it to continue, respecting the natural order and reserving judgment for idolaters in the future. The discussions and parables emphasize that God's anger is directed towards idol worshippers, not the idols themselves, and that apparent effects of idol worship are either coincidental or purposefully misleading the idol worshippers, not evidence of the idols' power.
These are the six dialogues (as always, text, translation, and explanation are from ed. Steinzaltz, split into lines by me for additional readability):
#1 - Mishnah - “They asked the Jewish Sages who were in Rome”
Unnamed Jewish sages in Rome are questioned (by unnamed questioners) as to why God doesn't remove idolatry if it's against His will. The Sages explain that many idolaters worship essential elements like the sun and moon. Eliminating these would mean destroying the world. Removing non-essential idols would validate the remaining ones, implying their divinity.
Mishnah, ibid., 54b (sections #12-13):
שאלו את הזקנים ברומי: אם אין רצונו בעבודת כוכבים למה אינו מבטלה?
אמרו להן: אילו לדבר שאין צורך לעולם בו, היו עובדין היה מבטלו. הרי הן עובדין לחמה וללבנה ולכוכבים ולמזלות, יאבד עולמו מפני השוטים?!
אמרו להן: א"כ, יאבד דבר שאין צורך לעולם בו, ויניח דבר שצורך העולם בו
אמרו להן: אף אנו מחזיקין ידי עובדיהן של אלו, שאומרים תדעו שהן אלוהות שהרי הן לא בטלו:
The gentiles asked the Jewish Sages who were in Rome: If it is not God’s will that people should engage in idol worship, why does He not eliminate it?
The Sages said to them: Were people worshipping only objects for which the world has no need, He would eliminate it. But they worship the sun and the moon and the stars and the constellations. Should He destroy His world because of the fools?
The gentiles said to the Sages: If so, let Him destroy those objects of idol worship for which the world has no need and leave those objects for which the world has a need.
The Sages said to them: If that were to happen, we would thereby be supporting the worshippers of those objects for which the world has need, as they would say: You should know that these are truly gods, as they were not eliminated from the world, whereas the others were eliminated.
#2 - Talmud - Beraita - “Philosophers asked the Jewish Sages who were in Rome”
Unnamed Jewish sages in Rome are asked the same question as previous, by unnamed “philosophers” (פלוסופין). The Sages reiterate that the world follows its natural course, and those who sin (like idolaters) will face judgment in the future. They use parables of a thief's stolen wheat growing and a woman becoming pregnant from adultery to illustrate that the world operates normally despite immoral actions.
Linguistic comment on a Greek loan word in this passage: Pombe (פומבי - pombe) - used in rabbinic Hebrew to mean “public”. Cognate with modern English pomp. See more at Balashon - Hebrew Language Detective: pumbei. Compare also the rabbinic usage of another Greek word for a similar concept, parhesia (פרהסיה). See more at Balashon - Hebrew Language Detective: pirsum.
Talmud, ibid. (sections #14-17):
ת"ר:
שאלו פלוסופין את הזקנים ברומי: אם אלהיכם אין רצונו בעבודת כוכבים, מפני מה אינו מבטלה?
אמרו להם: אילו לדבר שאין העולם צורך לו היו עובדין, הרי הוא מבטלה. הרי הן עובדין לחמה וללבנה ולכוכבים ולמזלות, יאבד עולם מפני השוטים?! אלא עולם כמנהגו נוהג, ושוטים שקלקלו עתידין ליתן את הדין.
דבר אחר:
הרי שגזל סאה של חטים [והלך] וזרעה בקרקע, דין הוא שלא תצמח, אלא עולם כמנהגו נוהג והולך, ושוטים שקלקלו עתידין ליתן את הדין.
דבר אחר:
הרי שבא על אשת חבירו, דין הוא שלא תתעבר, אלא עולם כמנהגו נוהג והולך, ושוטים שקלקלו עתידין ליתן את הדין.
והיינו דאמר ריש לקיש: אמר הקב"ה לא דיין לרשעים שעושין סלע שלי פומבי, אלא שמטריחין אותי ומחתימין אותי בעל כרחי
The Sages taught:
Certain philosophers [filosofin] asked the Jewish Sages who were in Rome: If it is not your God’s will that people should engage in idol worship, for what reason does He not eliminate it?
The Sages said to them: Were people worshipping only objects for which the world has no need, He would eliminate it. But they worship the sun and the moon and the stars and the constellations. Should He destroy the world because of the fools? Rather, the world follows its course, and the fools who sinned will be held to judgment in the future for their transgressions.
The baraita presents another matter that illustrates the same concept:
Consider the case of one who stole a se’a of wheat and went and planted it in the ground. By right it should not grow. But the world goes along and follows its course and the fools who sinned will be held to judgment in the future for their transgressions.
The baraita presents another matter that illustrates the same concept:
Consider the case of one who engaged in intercourse with the wife of another. By right she should not become pregnant. But the world goes along and follows its course and the fools who sinned will be held to judgment in the future for their transgressions.
The Gemara comments: And this is as Reish Lakish says: The Holy One, Blessed be He, said: Is it not enough for the wicked that they treat My die for a sela coin as if it were ownerless [pumbi], using it without My permission and against My will, as they impregnate women adulterously? But moreover, they also trouble Me and cause Me to sign the result of their actions against My will, as I form the fetus and give it life, even when its creation is the result of prohibited sexual intercourse.
To be continued