Tishrei or Nisan? A Core Tannaitic Dispute on the Dating of Biblical Events - An Experiment in Formatting the Talmud As Footnotes to a Tannaitic Text (Rosh Hashanah 11a-b)
This is a case study in formatting the Talmud’s adducing of biblical prooftexts for each step in an elaborate Tannaitic dispute, as footnotes.1
This sugya juxtaposes two competing calendrical frameworks—one centered on the month of Tishrei (fall), the other on the month of Nisan (spring)—and uses that tension to structure competing views of cosmology, history, and eschatology.
R' Eliezer roots key events in Tishrei, including Creation (list item #1),2 the Patriarchs’ birth and death (#2-3), and the future messianic redemption (#9). R' Yehoshua places the same events in Nisan.3
Despite this disagreement, both agree on several events linked to Rosh HaShana (1st of Tishrei), including the “remembrance” of the Matriarchs (#5),4 Joseph’s release from prison (#6), and the end of Israelite slavery in Egypt (#7; i.e. the Exodus).
Outline
Intro
Competing Calendars: dispute between R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua re historical dates--Tishrei vs. Nisan
Appendix - Table summarizing the points of disagreement and agreement between R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua in the sugya, and the prooftexts
The Passage
Competing Calendars: dispute between R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua re historical dates--Tishrei vs. Nisan
תניא,
רבי אליעזר אומר:
בתשרי נברא העולם,
בתשרי נולדו אבות,
בתשרי מתו אבות,
בפסח נולד יצחק,
בראש השנה נפקדה
שרה
רחל
וחנה,
בראש השנה יצא יוסף מבית האסורין
בראש השנה בטלה עבודה מאבותינו במצרים,
בניסן נגאלו,
בתשרי עתידין ליגאל.
It is taught in a baraita that the tanna’im disagreed about this point:
R' Eliezer says:
In Tishrei the world was created;5
in Tishrei the Patriarchs were born;6
in Tishrei the Patriarchs died;7
on Passover (15th-22nd of Nisan) Isaac was born;8
on Rosh HaShana (1st of Tishrei) were remembered9 by God and conceived
Sarah,
Rachel,
and Hannah;10
on Rosh HaShana Joseph came out from prison;11
on Rosh HaShana our forefathers’ slavery in Egypt ceased;12
in Nisan the Jewish people were redeemed from Egypt;13
and in Tishrei in the future the Jewish people will be redeemed in the final redemption with the coming of the Messiah.14
רבי יהושע אומר:
בניסן נברא העולם,
בניסן נולדו אבות,
בניסן מתו אבות,
בפסח נולד יצחק,
בראש השנה נפקדה
שרה
רחל
וחנה,
בראש השנה יצא יוסף מבית האסורין,
בראש השנה בטלה עבודה מאבותינו במצרים,
בניסן נגאלו
בניסן עתידין ליגאל.
R' Yehoshua disagrees and says:
In Nisan the world was created;15
in Nisan the Patriarchs were born;16
in Nisan the Patriarchs died;
on Passover Isaac was born;
on Rosh HaShana were remembered by God and conceived sons
Sarah,
Rachel,
and Hannah
on Rosh HaShana Joseph came out from prison;
on Rosh HaShana our forefathers’ slavery in Egypt ceased;
in Nisan the Jewish people were redeemed from Egypt;
and in Nisan in the future the Jewish people will be redeemed in the final redemption.17
Appendix - Table summarizing the points of disagreement and agreement between R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua in the sugya, and the prooftexts
It makes sense to format the Talmud here as footnotes to the baraita, because the Talmud goes through the baraita line-by-line, deriving each assertion from the Bible. I quote each of these in a footnote. I elide the Talmud’s questions of “and what about the other one?” - ואידך - and subsequent discussions.
See my recent appendices, where I do a similar thing:
The list numbering is based on my numbering of the lists below, and in the table in the appendix.
The idealized formula of each list item is as follows:
In [month/festival X] + [verb] + [biblical figure/group]
Where the latter parts refer to a biblical event.
I cite later parts of this sugya in other pieces of mine:
here, “Appendix 2 - Iyyar or Marḥeshvan? Dispute between R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua Regarding the date of Noah’s Flood (Rosh Hashanah 11b-12a)“
here, “Appendix 1 - “Non-Jewish Scholarship” in the Talmud“, section “Divergent chronological systems in Jewish and Non-Jewish traditions (Rosh Hashanah 12a)“, see my intro and footnote there on the basic technical terms used here.
Specifically: Sarah, Rachel, and Hannah.
Referring to their original state of barrenness, and God remembered them, leading to them conceiving sons.
See Wikipedia, “Women in the Bible“, section “Hagar and Sarah“:
Abraham is an important figure in the Bible, yet "his story pivots on two women."
Sarah was Abraham's wife and Hagar was Sarah's personal slave who became Abraham's concubine.
Sarah is introduced in the Bible with only her name and that she is "barren" and without child. She had borne no children though God had promised them a child.
Sarah is the first of barren women introduced, and the theme of infertility remains present throughout the matriarch narratives (Genesis 11:30, 25:21; 30:1–2).
And see ibid., section “Hannah“:
Hannah is one of two wives of Elkanah. The other, Peninnah, had given birth to Elkanah's children, but Hannah remained childless. Nevertheless, Elkanah preferred Hannah.
[…]
Hannah's status as primary wife and her barrenness recall Sarah and Rebecca in Genesis 17 and Genesis 25 respectively.
The Talmud cites a baraita where R' Eliezer provides a Source that the world was created in Tishrei - Genesis 1:11, in Rosh_Hashanah.11a.3:
תניא,
רבי אליעזר אומר:
מנין שבתשרי נברא העולם?
שנאמר:
״ויאמר אלהים:
תדשא הארץ דשא
עשב מזריע זרע
עץ פרי״.
איזהו חדש ש
הארץ מוציאה דשאים
ואילן מלא פירות?
הוי אומר זה תשרי.
ואותו הפרק זמן רביעה היתה,
וירדו גשמים וצימחו,
שנאמר: ״ואד יעלה מן הארץ״.
The Talmud explains these matters in detail:
It is taught in a baraita that
R' Eliezer says:
From where is it derived that the world was created in the month of Tishrei?
As it is stated:
“And God said:
Let the earth bring forth grass,
herb yielding seed,
and fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind” (Genesis 1:11).
Which is the month in which
the earth brings forth grass
and the trees are full of ripe fruit?
You must say that this is Tishrei.
And a further proof that the world was created in Tishrei is that when the world was first created, it needed rain so that the plants would grow, and the period beginning with Tishrei is a time of rain,
and rain fell and the plants grew,
as it is stated: “But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground” (Genesis 2:6).
R' Eliezer is cited as providing the Source that the Patriarchs were born in Tishrei - I Kings 8:2, in Rosh_Hashanah.11a.7-8:
רבי אליעזר אומר:
מנין שבתשרי נולדו אבות?
שנאמר:
״ויקהלו אל המלך שלמה כל איש ישראל
בירח האיתנים בחג״,
ירח שנולדו בו איתני עולם.
The baraita continues: R' Eliezer says: From where is it derived that in Tishrei the Patriarchs were born?
As it is stated:
“And all the men of Israel assembled themselves before King Solomon
at the feast in the month of the mighty [eitanim], which is the seventh month” (I Kings 8:2), i.e., Tishrei.
What is the meaning of the phrase: The month of the mighty?
It is the month in which the mighty ones of the world, i.e., the Patriarchs, were born.
מאי משמע דהאי ״איתן״ לישנא דתקיפי הוא?
כדכתיב: ״איתן מושבך״,
ואומר: ״שמעו הרים את ריב ה׳, והאיתנים מוסדי ארץ״,
ואומר:
״קול דודי הנה זה בא
מדלג על ההרים
מקפץ על הגבעות״.
״מדלג על ההרים״ —
בזכות אבות.
״מקפץ על הגבעות״ —
בזכות אמהות.
The Talmud asks: From where may it be inferred that the term eitan denotes mighty?
As it is written: “Strong [eitan] is Your dwelling place, and You put Your nest in a rock” (Numbers 24:21).
And it says: “Hear, O mountains, YHWH’s controversy, and you strong [eitanim] foundations of the earth” (Micah 6:2), which is a call to the Patriarchs.
And it says:
“The voice of my beloved; behold, he comes
leaping upon the mountains,
skipping upon the hills” (Song of Songs 2:8)
“Leaping upon the mountains”
means that the redemption will arrive early in the merit of the Patriarchs, who are called mountains,
and “skipping upon the hills”
means that it will come in the merit of the Matriarchs.
R' Eliezer derives the patriarchs’ birth from the phrase “month of the mighty” (ירח האיתנים, I Kings 8:2), interpreting “mighty” (איתנים) as a reference to the patriarchs.
See also Wikipedia, “Tishrei“:
In the Hebrew Bible the month is called Ethanim (Hebrew: אֵתָנִים – 1 Kings 8:2), or simply the seventh month.
Source for the month of the Patriarchs' Death--The righteous die on the same date they are born - Deuteronomy 31:2; Exodus 23:26, in Rosh_Hashanah.11a.12:
מאן דאמר בניסן נולדו —
בניסן מתו.
מאן דאמר בתשרי נולדו —
בתשרי מתו
The Talmud continues:
The one who said that in Nisan the Patriarchs were born
also holds that in Nisan they died.
The one who says that in Tishrei they were born
also holds that in Tishrei they died
שנאמר:
״ויאמר אליהם:
בן מאה ועשרים שנה אנכי היום״,
שאין תלמוד לומר ״היום״,
ומה תלמוד לומר ״היום״?
היום מלאו ימי ושנותי.
ללמדך ש:
הקדוש ברוך הוא יושב וממלא שנותיהם של צדיקים
מיום ליום
מחדש לחדש,
שנאמר: ״את מספר ימיך אמלא״.
as it is stated about Moses on the day of his death:
“And he said to them:
I am 120 years old today” (Deuteronomy 31:2).
As there is no need for the verse to state “today,” since it is clear that Moses was speaking on that day,
what is the meaning when the verse states “today”?
It is to teach that Moses was speaking precisely, as if to say: Today my days and years are exactly filled and completed.
This comes to teach you that
God sits and fills the years of the righteous
from day to day
and from month to month,
as it is stated: “The number of your days I will fulfill” (Exodus 23:26).
Similarly, the Patriarchs merited that their years be fulfilled to the day, and so they died on the same date they were born.
Both positions presuppose that the righteous die on the same date they are born, based on Moses' statement, “I am 120 years old today.” This is interpreted as exact calendrical correspondence, derived from “I will fulfill the number of your days” (Exodus 23:26).
Source that Isaac was born on Passover - Genesis 18:14, in Rosh_Hashanah.11a.13:
בפסח נולד יצחק,
מנלן?
כדכתיב: ״למועד אשוב אליך״.
אימת קאי?
אילימא
בפסח
וקאמר ליה בעצרת —
בחמשין יומין מי קא ילדה?
אלא
דקאי בעצרת
וקאמר ליה בתשרי —
אכתי בחמשה ירחי מי קא ילדה?
אלא דקאי בחג
וקאמר לה בניסן.
It was taught in the baraita: On Passover Isaac was born.
The Talmud asks: From where do we derive this?
As it is written that the angel who informed Sarah that she would bear a son told Abraham: “At the appointed time [mo’ed] I will return to you, at this season, and Sarah shall have a son” (Genesis 18:14).
This is understood to mean: At the time of the next Festival [mo’ed].
When did the angel say this?
If we say that
it was on Passover
and he said to him that Sarah would have a son on Shavuot,
can a woman give birth after only 50 days?
Rather, say that
it was Shavuot
and he said that she would give birth on the Festival that occurs in the month of Tishrei, i.e., Sukkot.
But still, can she give birth after only 5 months?
Rather, you must say that it was Sukkot,
and he spoke about the Festival that occurs in the month of Nisan, i.e., Passover.
נפקדה.
On this unusual verb (פקד), in the sense of “remember” (see Hebrew Wiktionary, sense #4; both examples are specifically of God remembering), compare Taanit.8b.3:
נאמר פקידה באשה,
ונאמר פקידה בגשמים.
נאמר פקידה באשה —
דכתיב: ״וה׳ פקד את שרה״,
ונאמר פקידה בגשמים —
דכתיב:
״פקדת הארץ ותשקקה
רבת תעשרנה
פלג אלהים מלא מים״
an expression of “remembering” (פקידה) is stated in connection with a woman,
and an expression of “remembering” is also stated in connection to rain.
“Remembering” is stated in connection with a woman —
as it is written: “And YHWH remembered (פקד) Sarah” (Genesis 21:1),
and “remembering” is stated in connection to rain —
as it is written:
“You have remembered (פקדת) the earth and have watered it;
greatly enriching it,
with the pool of God that is full of water” (Psalms 65:10).
Source that Sarah, Rachel, and Hannah were remembered On Rosh HaShana - Genesis 30:22; I Samuel 1:19, 2:21; Leviticus 23:24, in Rosh_Hashanah.11a.16-17:
בראש השנה נפקדה שרה רחל וחנה.
מנלן?
אמר רבי אלעזר:
אתיא ״פקידה״ ״פקידה״,
אתיא ״זכירה״ ״זכירה״.
It was taught in the baraita: On Rosh HaShana, Sarah, Rachel, and Hannah were revisited by God and conceived children.
The Talmud asks: From where do we derive this?
R' Elazar said:
This is derived by means of a verbal analogy between one instance of the term revisiting [pekida] and another instance of the term revisiting,
and by means of a verbal analogy between one instance of the term remembering [zekhira] and another instance of the word remembering.
כתיב ברחל:
״ויזכור אלהים את רחל״,
וכתיב בחנה:
״ויזכרה ה׳״,
ואתיא ״זכירה״ ״זכירה״ מראש השנה --
דכתיב: ״שבתון זכרון תרועה״.
״פקידה״ ״פקידה״ --
כתיב בחנה:
״כי פקד ה׳ את חנה״,
וכתיב בשרה:
״וה׳ פקד את שרה״.
It is written about Rachel:
“And God remembered Rachel” (Genesis 30:22),
and it is written about Hannah:
“And YHWH remembered her” (I Samuel 1:19).
And the meaning of these instances of the term remembering is derived from another instance of the term remembering, with regard to Rosh HaShana --
as it is written: “A solemn rest, memorial proclaimed with the blast of a shofar” (Leviticus 23:24).
From here it is derived that Rachel and Hannah were remembered by God on Rosh HaShana.
And the meaning of one instance of the term revisiting is derived from another instance of the term revisiting --
It is written about Hannah:
“And YHWH revisited Hannah” (I Samuel 2:21),
and it is written about Sarah: “
And YHWH revisited Sarah” (Genesis 21:1).
From here it is derived that just as Hannah was revisited on Rosh HaShana, so too, Sarah was revisited on Rosh HaShana.
Source that Joseph released from prison On Rosh HaShana - Psalms 81:4–6, in Rosh_Hashanah.11a.18-11b.1:
בראש השנה יצא יוסף מבית האסורין,
מנלן?
דכתיב:
״תקעו בחדש שופר בכסא ליום חגנו.
כי חק לישראל הוא וגו׳.
עדות ביהוסף שמו בצאתו וגו׳״.
It was further taught in the baraita: On Rosh HaShana Joseph came out of prison. The Talmud asks: From where do we derive this?
As it is written: “Sound a shofar at the New Moon, at the covered time of our Festival day.
For this is a statute for Israel, a judgment of the God of Jacob” (Psalms 81:4–5).
This is a reference to Rosh HaShana, the only Festival that occurs at the time of the New Moon, when the moon is covered and cannot be seen.
And immediately afterward it is written: “This He ordained in Joseph for testimony, when he went out over the land of Egypt” (Psalms 81:6), implying that Joseph’s release from prison took place on Rosh HaShana.
Source that slavery in Egypt ceased On Rosh HaShana - Exodus 6:6; Psalms 81:7, in Rosh_Hashanah.11b.2:
בראש השנה בטלה עבודה מאבותינו במצרים —
כתיב הכא:
״והוצאתי אתכם מתחת סבלות מצרים״,
וכתיב התם:
״הסירותי מסבל שכמו״.
It was also taught in the baraita: On Rosh HaShana our forefathers’ slavery in Egypt ceased. From where is this known?
It is written here:
“And I will bring you out from under the burdens of Egypt” (Exodus 6:6);
and it is written there, with regard to Joseph:
“I removed his shoulder from the burden” (Psalms 81:7).
Joseph’s release (see previous footnote) and Israel’s cessation of slavery are linked (gezerah shavah) through the shared term “burden” (סבל).
The Talmud states, Rosh_Hashanah.11b.3:
בניסן נגאלו —
כדאיתא.
It was taught in the baraita: In Nisan our forefathers were redeemed from Egypt, as it is explicitly stated in the Torah.
This (כדאיתיה - “as it is”) is the standard Talmudic formula for “as it states explicitly in the Bible”; compare the passage cited in my recent piece, cited in the intro to this piece, Arakhin.15b.4:
בעגל —
כדאיתיה,
במדבר פארן —
כדאיתיה.
The Talmud concludes its detailing of the Jewish people’s ten trials of God:
The trial of the golden calf
is as it is described in the Torah (Exodus, chapter 32),
and the trial in the wilderness of Paran
is as it is described in the Torah (Numbers, chapter 13).
As for the actual relevant biblical sources, see the following:
Exodus 12:6, 12, 17
The Israelites are told to slaughter the Passover lamb on the 14th of this month, and God says:
"And I will pass through the land of Egypt this night..." (v.12)
"...for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt..." (v.17)
Exodus 13:4
"This day came ye out in the month of Aviv."'Aviv' is the older name for Nisan (see also Deut. 16:1).
Esther 3:7
"...in the first month, which is the month Nisan..."This confirms that Aviv was later renamed Nisan during the Persian period.
Source that the future redemption will be in Tishrei - Psalms 81:4, Isaiah 27:13, in Rosh_Hashanah.11b.3:
בתשרי עתידין ליגאל —
אתיא ״שופר״ ״שופר״.
כתיב הכא: ״תקעו בחדש שופר״,
וכתיב התם: ״ביום ההוא יתקע בשופר גדול״.
The baraita continues: In Tishrei in the future the Jewish people will be redeemed in the final redemption.
This is derived by means of a verbal analogy between one instance of the word shofar and another instance of the word shofar.
It is written here, with regard to Rosh HaShana: “Sound a shofar at the New Moon” (Psalms 81:4),
and it is written there, with regard to the final redemption: “And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be blown” (Isaiah 27:13).
R' Eliezer posits the final redemption will occur in Tishrei based on the shared shofar motif with Rosh HaShanah.
The Talmud cites the continuation of the baraita cited in previous footnote, where R' Yehoshua provides his Source that the world was created in Nisan - Genesis 1:12, in Rosh_Hashanah.11a.4:
רבי יהושע אומר:
מנין שבניסן נברא העולם?
שנאמר:
״ותוצא הארץ דשא
עשב מזריע זרע
ועץ עושה פרי״.
איזהו חדש ש
הארץ מליאה דשאים
ואילן מוציא פירות?
הוי אומר, זה ניסן.
ואותו הפרק, זמן
בהמה
וחיה
ועוף
שמזדווגין זה אצל זה,
שנאמר: ״לבשו כרים הצאן וגו׳״
R' Yehoshua says:
From where is it derived that the world was created in the month of Nisan?
As it is stated:
“And the earth brought forth grass,
herb yielding seed after its kind,
and tree yielding fruit” (Genesis 1:12).
Which is the month in which
the earth is full of grass
and the trees begin to bring forth fruit?
You must say that this is Nisan.
And further proof that the world was created in Nisan is that when the world was first created, the animals had to breed in order to fill the world, and the period beginning with Nisan is a time when
cattle,
and beasts,
and birds
mate (מזדווגין) with one another,
as it is stated: “The flocks are clothed in the meadows, and the valleys are wrapped in grain; they shout for joy, they also sing” (Psalms 65:14).
R' Yehoshua - Source that the Patriarchs were born in Nisan - I Kings 6:1, in Rosh_Hashanah.11a.9:
רבי יהושע אומר:
מנין שבניסן נולדו אבות?
שנאמר:
״ויהי בשמונים שנה וארבע מאות שנה לצאת בני ישראל מארץ מצרים
בשנה הרביעית
בחדש זיו״
בירח שנולדו בו זיותני עולם.
R' Yehoshua says:
From where is it derived that in Nisan the Patriarchs were born?
As it is stated:
“And it came to pass in the 480th year after the Israelites left Egypt,
in the 4th year,
in the month of Ziv (זיו)” (I Kings 6:1).
This means in the month in which the radiant ones [zivtanei] of the world, the Patriarchs, were born.
However, compare Wikipedia, “Iyar“:
In the Hebrew Bible, before the Babylonian captivity, the month was called Ziv (זו, 1 Kings 6:1, 6:37).
Ziv is a Hebrew word that means "light" or "glow".
On the word ziv in the Talmud, see my piece here (section “Rav“) quoting the phrase “ziv of the Shekhina”, and the Wikipedia entry I cite there for a relevant Mandean term.
Source for R' Yehoshua that future redemption will be in Nisan - Exodus 12:42, in Rosh_Hashanah.11b.4:
רבי יהושע אומר: בניסן נגאלו, בניסן עתידין ליגאל
מנלן?
אמר קרא: ״ליל שמורים״
ליל המשומר ובא מששת ימי בראשית.
It was also taught in the baraita:
R' Yehoshua says: In Nisan our forefathers were redeemed from Egypt; and in Nisan in the future the Jewish people will be redeemed in the final redemption.
The Talmud asks: From where do we derive that the final redemption will be in Nisan?
The verse states: “It is a night of watching for YHWH for bringing them out from the land of Egypt; this is YHWH’s night of watching, for all the children of Israel throughout their generations” (Exodus 12:42).
This teaches that the night of Passover is a night that has been continuously watched, i.e., set aside for the purpose of redemption, from the six days of Creation, and it will continue to be so until the final redemption.