When and Who Was Job? Talmudic Views on His Time Period and Identity (Bava Batra 15a-b)
The sugya presents a wide spectrum of views on Job’s identity and time period:1 Job as a historical figure in various biblical periods, Job as a moral parable, and Job as a non-Jewish prophet or even heretic.
While most views presuppose Job’s historicity and Jewish identity, some dissenting traditions reject both.
The Talmud does not resolve these contradictions. Instead, it preserves the multiplicity of voices, foregrounding the symbolic malleability of the Job narrative in rabbinic thought.
Outline
Intro
The Passage - When and Who Was Job? Talmudic Views on His Identity and Time Period (Bava Batra 15a-b)
R' Levi bar Laḥma - Job lived in Moses’ time - Use of word ‘eifo’ (אפוא) in both Job 19:23 and Exodus 33:16
Rava - Job lived in the time of the Twelve Spies - “Utz” (Job 1:1) alluded to in ‘eitz’ (“tree”) in Numbers 13:20
Unnamed Sage - Job never existed—he was a parable - All stories need not be literal; parallels 2 Samuel 12; R' Shmuel bar Naḥmani - Job was real - Job 1:1 gives name and location
R' Yoḥanan & R' Elazar - Job lived in early Second Temple period; study hall in Tiberias
Job lived at the time of the Jews’ enslavement in Egypt
A List of Seven Non-Jewish biblical prophets: Balaam, Beor, Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu
Job was a non-Jewish pious man; When afflicted, he blasphemed God, God then gave him earthly reward to exclude him from the World-to-Come
R' Elazar - Job lived during the Judges - “Why then have you become altogether vain” (Job 27:12) – a “vain” generation
R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa - Job lived during Ahasuerus’s reign - “No women as beautiful as Job’s daughters” (Job 42:15) ↔ Esther 2
R' Natan - Job lived during Kingdom of Sheba - “Sheba fell and took them” (Job 1:15)
Unnamed Rabbis - Job lived in the time of the Chaldeans - “Chaldeans formed three bands” (Job 1:17)
“Some Say” - Job lived in the time of Jacob and married Dina - “You speak as one of the נבלות” (Job 2:10) ↔ “כי נבלה עשה בישראל” (Genesis 34:7)
Appendix 1 - Table Summarizing the rabbinic opinions in the sugya: Time Period Assigned to Job; Approx. Dates (BCE); Reason Given or Textual Clue
Appendix 2 - R’ Yoḥanan - Job’s generation was sexually promiscuous (Job 27:12; Song of Songs 7:1)
The Passage
R' Levi bar Laḥma - Job lived in Moses’ time - Use of word ‘eifo’ (אפוא) in both Job 19:23 and Exodus 33:16
A baraita lists the books authored by Moses: the Torah (=Pentatech), the episode of Balaam (פרשת בלעם), and the book of Job.2
This supports R' Levi bar Laḥma’s view that Job lived in Moses’ time.3
As evidence, he points to the shared use of the word “eifo”4 in Job 19:23 and Exodus 33:16.
משה כתב --
ספרו
ופרשת בלעם
ואיוב.
מסייעא ליה לרבי לוי בר לחמא –
דאמר רבי לוי בר לחמא:
איוב בימי משה היה –
כתיב הכא:
״מי יתן אפוא ויכתבון מלי״,
וכתיב התם:
״ובמה יודע אפוא״.
[...]
The baraita further states that Moses wrote --
his own book, i.e., the Torah,
the portion of Balaam,
and the book of Job.
This supports R' Levi bar Laḥma,
as R' Levi bar Laḥma says:
Job lived in the time of Moses.
It is written here with regard to Job:
“Oh, that my words were written now [eifo]” (Job 19:23),
and it is written there in Moses’ words to God:
“For in what shall it be known here [eifo]” (Exodus 33:16).
The unusual use of the word eifo in these two places indicates that Job and Moses lived in the same generation.
[...]
Rava - Job lived in the time of the Twelve Spies - “Utz” (Job 1:1) alluded to in “eitz” (tree) in Numbers 13:20
Rava asserts that Job lived in the generation of the biblical Twelve Spies (מרגלים - in the time of Moses).
He compares the name of Job’s homeland “Utz”5 with the word “eitz” (עץ - “tree”) in Moses’ charge to the Spies.
רבא אמר:
איוב בימי מרגלים היה –
כתיב הכא:
״איש היה בארץ עוץ, איוב שמו״,
וכתיב התם:
״היש בה עץ״.
[...]
Rava says:
Job lived at the time of the spies whom Moses sent to scout the land of Canaan.
This is proven by the fact that it is written here:
“There was a man in the land of Utz, whose name was Job” (Job 1:1),
and it is written there in the account of the spies:
“Whether there are trees [eitz] in it” (Numbers 13:20).
[...]
Unnamed Sage - Job never existed—he was a parable - All stories need not be literal; parallels 2 Samuel 12; R' Shmuel bar Naḥmani - Job was real - Job 1:1 gives name and location
One unnamed sage suggests Job never existed;6 his entire story is an extended allegory.7
R' Shmuel bar Naḥmani rejects this, citing the concrete introduction in Job 1:1.
יתיב ההוא מרבנן קמיה דרבי שמואל בר נחמני,
ויתיב וקאמר:
איוב לא היה ולא נברא,
אלא משל היה.
אמר ליה:
עליך אמר קרא:
״איש היה בארץ עוץ,
איוב שמו״.
The Talmud relates that one of the rabbis sat before R' Shmuel bar Naḥmani
and he sat and said:
Job never existed and was never created; there was never such a person as Job.
Rather, his story was a parable.
R' Shmuel bar Naḥmani said to him:
In rebuttal to you, the verse states:
“There was a man in the Land of Utz
whose name was Job” (Job 1:1), which indicates that such a man did indeed exist.
The opponent counters with the parable of the poor man and the lamb,8 but R' Shmuel argues that parables lack personal names and locations—unlike Job.
אלא מעתה,
״ולרש אין כל כי אם כבשה אחת קטנה,
אשר קנה ויחיה וגו׳״,
מי הוה?!
אלא:
משל בעלמא,
הכא נמי משל בעלמא.
אם כן, שמו ושם עירו למה?
The Talmud asks: But if that is so, that the words “there was” prove that Job existed, what shall we say about the parable that Natan the prophet presented to David: “There were two men in one city; the one rich and the other poor.
The rich man had very many flocks and herds, but the poor man had nothing except one little lamb,
which he had bought and reared” (II Samuel 12:3)?
Was there really such a person?
Rather,
it was merely a parable;
here too it is merely a parable.
The Talmud answers: If so, that it is a parable, why state his name and the name of his city? Rather, Job was clearly a real person.
R' Yoḥanan & R' Elazar - Job lived in early Second Temple period; study hall in Tiberias
רבי יוחנן ורבי אלעזר דאמרי תרוייהו:
איוב מעולי גולה היה,
ובית מדרשו בטבריא היה.
[...]
The Talmud cites another opinion with regard to the time when Job lived.
R' Yoḥanan and R' Elazar both say:
Job was among those who ascended from the exile9 to Eretz Yisrael at the start of the Second Temple period,
and his house of study was in Tiberias.
[...]
Job lived at the time of the Jews’ enslavement in Egypt
ימי שנותיו של איוב –
משעה שנכנסו ישראל למצרים, ועד שיצאו
[...]
taught in a baraita:
The days of Job’s life extended
from when Israel entered Egypt until they left (i.e. the Exodus)
[...]
A List of Seven Non-Jewish biblical prophets: Balaam, Beor, Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu
(See the footnote.)10
שבעה נביאים נתנבאו לאומות העולם
ואלו הן:
בלעם
ואביו
ואיוב,
אליפז התימני
ובלדד השוחי
וצופר הנעמתי
ואליהוא בן ברכאל הבוזי
[...]
another baraita:
7 prophets prophesied to the nations of the world,
and they are:
Balaam
and his father Beor,
and Job,
and Bildad the Shuhite,
[...]
Job was a non-Jewish pious man; When afflicted, he blasphemed God, God then gave him earthly reward to exclude him from the World-to-Come
A baraita states that Job was a pious (חסיד - hasid) non-Jew created solely to receive reward.
When afflicted,11 he blasphemed God.12
God then doubled his earthly reward13 to exclude14 him from the World-to-Come.
חסיד היה באומות העולם –
ואיוב שמו,
ולא בא לעולם אלא כדי לקבל שכרו.
הביא הקדוש ברוך הוא עליו יסורין –
התחיל מחרף ומגדף.
כפל לו הקדוש ברוך הוא שכרו בעולם הזה,
[כדי] לטרדו מן העולם הבא
[...]
taught in a different baraita:
There was a certain pious man among the nations of the world
and his name was Job,
and he came into the world only to receive his reward.
God brought afflictions upon him,
and he began to blaspheme and curse.
God doubled his reward in this world
in order to expel him from the World-to-Come.
[...]
R' Elazar - Job lived during the Judges - “Why then have you become altogether vain” (Job 27:12) – a “vain” generation
תניא,
רבי אלעזר אומר:
איוב בימי שפוט השופטים היה,
שנאמר:
״הן אתם כלכם חזיתם,
ולמה זה הבל תהבלו״ –
איזה דור שכולו הבל?
הוי אומר: זה דורו של שפוט השופטים.
it is taught in a baraita with regard to the period during which Job lived:
R' Elazar says:
Job lived in the days of the judging of the Judges15
as it is stated in connection with Job:
“Behold, all you yourselves have seen it;
why then have you become altogether vain?” (Job 27:12).
Which generation was completely vain?
You must say it was the generation of the judging of the Judges, when the people judged the Judges, as will be explained shortly.
R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa - Job lived during Ahasuerus’s reign - “No women as beautiful as Job’s daughters” (Job 42:15) ↔ Esther 2
רבי יהושע בן קרחה אומר:
איוב בימי אחשורוש היה,
שנאמר: ״ולא נמצא נשים יפות כבנות איוב בכל הארץ״ –
איזהו דור שנתבקשו בו נשים יפות?
הוי אומר: זה דורו של אחשורוש.
[...]
R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa says:
Job lived in the days of Ahasuerus,
as it is stated: “And in all the world were no women found so beautiful as the daughters of Job” (Job 42:15).
In which generation were beautiful women sought?
You must say it was the generation of Ahasuerus (Esther, chapter 2).
[...]
R' Natan - Job lived during Kingdom of Sheba - “Sheba fell and took them” (Job 1:15)
רבי נתן אומר:
איוב בימי מלכות שבא היה,
שנאמר: ״ותפל שבא ותקחם״.
R' Natan says:
Job lived in the days of the kingdom of Sheba,16
as it is stated: “And Sheba fell upon them, and took them away” (Job 1:15).
Unnamed Rabbis - Job lived in the time of the Chaldeans - “Chaldeans formed three bands” (Job 1:17)
וחכמים אומרים:
איוב בימי כשדים היה,
שנאמר: ״כשדים שמו שלשה ראשים״.
And the Rabbis say:
Job lived in the days of the kingdom of the Chaldeans (כשדים) in the time of Nebuchadnezzar,
as it is stated: “The Chaldeans formed three bands” (Job 1:17).
“Some Say” - Job lived in the time of Jacob and married Dina - “You speak as one of the נבלות” (Job 2:10) ↔ “כי נבלה עשה בישראל” (Genesis 34:7)
ויש אומרים:
איוב בימי יעקב היה,
ודינה בת יעקב נשא –
כתיב הכא:
״כדבר אחת הנבלות תדברי״,
וכתיב התם:
״כי נבלה עשה בישראל״.
[...]
And some say that
Job lived in the days of Jacob
and that he married Dina, the daughter of Jacob.
As it is written here:
“You speak as one of the loathsome women speaks” (Job 2:10),
and it is written there in the account of the incident involving Dina:
“He has done a loathsome act in Israel” (Genesis 34:7).
This concludes the text of the baraita.
[...]
Appendix 1 - Table Summarizing the rabbinic opinions in the sugya: Time Period Assigned to Job; Approx. Dates (BCE); Reason Given or Textual Clue
Appendix 2 - R’ Yoḥanan - Job’s generation was sexually promiscuous (Job 27:12; Song of Songs 7:1)
אמר רבי יוחנן:
דורו של איוב שטוף בזמה היה,
שנאמר:
״הן אתם כולכם חזיתם,
ולמה זה הבל תהבלו״,
וכתיב:
״שובי שובי השולמית
שובי שובי ונחזה בך״.
R’ Yoḥanan says:
The generation of Job was awash in licentiousness (שטוף בזמה),
as it is stated:
“Behold, all of you yourselves have seen [ḥazitem] it;
why then have you become altogether vain?” (Job 27:12),
and it is written:
“Return, return, O Shulamite;
return, return, that we may look [veneḥeze] upon you” (Song of Songs 7:1), which teaches that the phrase “you have seen it” connotes a licentious gaze.
This is part of the final part of a series on the extended sugya of Job; see my previous pieces in this series:
Three-part series: “Pt3 Book of Job in Talmudic Interpretation: Job's Contested Righteousness and Satan's Character (Bava Batra 15b-16b)”, final part here
This baraita is cited at the end of a different sugya on the order and authorship of biblical books, that I plan to discuss in a future piece.
The sugya of Job is discussed due to this association.
On Job living in Moses’ time, at time of the enslavement in Egypt, compare the Talmudic statement found a number of times in the Talmud, that Pharaoh consulted three advisors regarding whether to enslave the Jews: Balaam, Job, and Jethro.
See, for example, my “Pharaoh’s Deception, the Mechanics of Oppression, and Divine Justice: Talmudic Interpretations of Exodus 1:10-14 (Sotah 11a-b)“, section “Pharaoh’s Advisors and their fates“.
עוץ ; and see the discussion in Wikipedia, “Uz, son of Aram”.
לא היה ולא נברא - literally: “never was and never created (נברא)”, an idiom.
Compare the similar Talmudic idiom in Sanhedrin.71a.15-18: “never was and never will be in the future” (לא היתה ולא עתידה להיות), meaning: “[the relevant scenario] never has--or will--occur", said about the biblical laws of Wayward Son and City of Idol Worshippers (בן סורר ומורה ועיר הנידחת).
And compare my discussion here, on the Sotah: “Towards Decoding Ha-Yeriah Ha-Gedolah (The Great Parchment), A Cryptic 14th Century Italian Kabbalistic Text”, p. 7-8 (unnumbered).
2 Samuel 12, in Nathan’s rebuke of David's actions towards Bathsheba and Uriah.
See also the discussion of that parable--also in a somewhat methodological context--in the Talmudic discussion here, section “The Meaning of "Mordecai Took Her for a Daughter" (Esther 2:7): He Married Her (II Samuel 12:3)”.
עולי גולה - i.e. the “Return to Zion” from Babylonia, at the time of Ezra (c. late 6th century CE).
The term golah (“exile, diaspora”) in Talmudic literature typically refers specifically to Babylonia.
On the Talmudic idiom “ascend to Eretz Yisrael”, see my recent Appendix here: ““Ascending” (‘Aliyah’) from Babylonia to Eretz Yisrael – Notes on the Term“.
Compare the Talmud's list elsewhere of seven biblical female prophets, and the extended analysis of that list.
The people listed here in items #4-6 are Job’s friends in the Book of Job.
On them, see my recent piece “Pt3 Book of Job in Talmudic Interpretation: Job's Contested Righteousness and Satan's Character (Bava Batra 15b-16b)”, section “Job’s Friends and Daughters”.
Elihu (listed at #7) is a critic of Job and his three friends, in the Book of Job.
יסורין - as described in the Book of Job.
מחרף ומגדף - “blaspheme and curse”; a common Talmudic idiom.
Job’s post-suffering blessings are described at the end of the Book of Job.
לטרדו - literally: “expel”.
“To expel from the world” is a common Talmudic idiom to mean “to cause someone to lose their divine reward in the World-to-Come”, see search results here.
שפוט השופטים - alluding to Ruth.1.1:
ויהי בימי שפט השפטים
In the days when the judges ruled
And see the quote soon after in the sugya, brought by association, Bava_Batra.15b.10:
ואמר רבי יוחנן:
מאי דכתיב: ״ויהי בימי שפוט השופטים״?
דור ששופט את שופטיו;
אומר לו: ״טול קיסם מבין עיניך״ –
אומר לו: ״טול קורה מבין עיניך״.
אמר לו: ״כספך היה לסיגים״ –
אמר לו: ״סבאך מהול במים״.
And further, with regard to R’ Elazar’s statement in the baraita that the generation of the judging of the Judges was one of vanity, R’ Yoḥanan says:
What is the meaning of that which is written: “And it happened in the days of the judging of the Judges” (Ruth 1:1)?
This indicates a generation that judged its judges.
If a judge would say to the defendant standing before him: Remove the splinter (קיסם) from between your eyes, meaning rid yourself of some minor infraction,
the defendant would say to him: Remove the beam (קורה) from between your eyes, meaning you have committed far more severe sins.
If the judge would say to him: “Your silver is become dross (סיגים)” (Isaiah 1:22), meaning your coins are counterfeit,
the defendant would say to him: “Your wine (סבאך) is mixed with water” (Isaiah 1:22), meaning you yourself dilute your wine with water and sell it.
Since nobody behaved in proper manner, the judges were unable to judge.
On this line, compare the famous line in Matthew 7:3:
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but don't consider the beam that is in your own eye?
And see Wikipedia, “Matthew 7:3“, section “Analysis“:
This verse warns the hypocrites (see verse 5) who attack others for their small flaws while ignoring their own massive ones, those who judge others but do not evaluate themselves.
It has a dual meaning, first attacking the hypocrisy of those who criticize others while ignoring their own much larger flaws, and since the flaw is in the eye it is a metaphor for how such flaws can blind one.
R. T. France comments that it is not wrong to try to help other people's failing (cf. Matthew 18:15–17), but the person unaware of their own greater failing is not in position to do it.
The metaphor is a rather extreme one. The word translated as mote or speck can refer to a tiny splinter or piece of sawdust, or colloquially to any minute object.
The word translated as beam refers to a rafter or a log such as would hold up the roof of a house.
A beam is a difficult thing to get in one's eye, but it functions as a humorous and hyperbolic metaphor for an extreme flaw.
מלכות שבא.
Compare Wikipedia, “Queen of Sheba” and ibid., “1 Kings 10”, section “The visit of the Queen of Sheba [to Solomon] (10:1–13)”.
And see the statement later in the sugya, Bava_Batra.15b.11:
אמר רבי שמואל בר נחמני, אמר רבי יונתן:
כל האומר מלכת שבא אשה היתה –
אינו אלא טועה;
מאי ״מלכת שבא״?
מלכותא דשבא.
R’ Shmuel bar Naḥmani says that R’ Yonatan says:
Anyone who says that the queen of Sheba [malkat Sheva] who came to visit King Solomon (see I Kings, chapter 10) was a woman —
is nothing other than mistaken.
What is the meaning of malkat Sheba?
The kingdom [malkhuta] of Sheba, as is mentioned in Job: “And Sheba fell on them and took them away” (Job 1:15).
The phrase “is nothing other than mistaken” (אינו אלא טועה) is a common Talmudic idiom, see search results here.
And see especially the appearance of this phrase four times in biblical interpretations of apparent sins, in Shabbat 55b-56a, similarly “R’ Shmuel bar Naḥmani citing R’ Yonatan”.