Pt1 R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya’s Riddle Contest With the Athenian Philosophers (Bekhorot 8b-9a)

A Story of Wisdom, Irony, and Farce

This is the first part of a two-part series. The outline of the series is below.

Intro - Overall Structure and Themes

The sugya stages a contest of wit, control of premises, and mastery of verbal traps.¹ The Athenians’² riddles rely on impossible or illogical conditions; R’ Yehoshua systematically answers by either (1) mirroring the absurdity, (2) reframing the premise, or (3) performing a counter-absurdity.³

The narrative oscillates between comic inversion and political assertion: the emperor positions R’ Yehoshua as the representative who must prove Jewish intellectual superiority, while the Athenian philosophers serve as an elite, hermetic counter-academy.

The conclusion converts rhetorical victory into physical control, using the same logic: impossible tasks, manipulation of assumptions, and symbolic materials (soil, water), all to subdue his opponents.

Outline

Intro - Overall Structure and Themes

The Passage - R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya’s Riddle Contest With the Athenian Philosophers (Bekhorot 8b-9a)

Part 1

1. Opening Exchange: Snake Gestation

2. The emperor orders R’ Yehoshua to defeat the Athenian sages; R’ Yehoshua requests a ship with 60 rooms, each furnished with 60 mattresses (a logistical device he will later use to isolate the Athenians)

3. Journey to Athens; Dialogue with a local butcher

4. R’ Yehoshua threatens the butcher who quoted a price for “a head,” exploiting the ambiguity to force him to reveal the entrance to the Athenians’ academy; The butcher, afraid of being killed for revealing it, marks the spot with a bundle of reeds

5. Entering the Academy: Guards stand both inside and outside (and sand is spread to reveal footprints)

6. R’ Yehoshua reverses his sandal (to simulate exit-prints), causing the inner guards to be killed; He repeats the tactic to implicate the outer guards (thus enabling entry)

7. Inside, he observes younger scholars seated above elder scholars -- If he greets the young ones first, the elders will be insulted; if he greets the elders first, the young will resent it; He therefore offers a neutral greeting to all

Part 2

The Intellectual Contest: The Athenians pose a sequence of riddles

1. 1 - Athenian Challenge: Why would a rejected suitor approach an even more “distinguished” family?; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: Demonstrates with a peg: it won’t fit in the lower part of the wall but fits higher up (A metaphor for luck)

2. 2 - Athenian Challenge: Why would a lender who already lost money lend again?; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: A man keeps adding bundles of reeds until someone helps him lift them (People continue risky behaviors anticipating eventual success)

3. 3 - Athenian Challenge: “Say something nonsensical”; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: A mule gave birth to a foal carrying a debt-note for 100,000 dinars (i.e. He produces intentional nonsense, matching the request)

4. 4 - Athenian Challenge: How does one preserve salt that has spoiled?; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: With the placenta of a mule (Since salt does not spoil, its “preservation” is as impossible as a mule’s placenta)

5. 5 - Athenian Challenge: Build a house in midair; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: He levitates (via the Tetragrammaton) and tells them to bring bricks up to him

6. 6 - Athenian Challenge: Where is the center of the world?; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: Points to a spot and says: “Here—measure if you wish” (Shifts burden of proof; exposes arbitrariness of the question)

7. 7 - Athenian Challenge: Move a field-pit into the city; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: “Bring me ropes made of bran and I will pull it” (Mirrors their impossibility with another impossibility)

8. 8 - Athenian Challenge: Sew a broken millstone; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: “Pull threads from the stone and I will sew it” (Same technique: impossible premise answered with symmetrical impossibility)

9. 9 - Athenian Challenge: How does one harvest a field of knives?; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: With the horn of a donkey (Again, pairs impossibility with impossibility - donkeys have no horns)

10. 10 - Athenian Challenge: Which egg came from a black vs white hen?; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: Produces two cheeses: identify which goat was black or white (Shows that their question lacks accessible criteria)

11. 11 - Athenian Challenge: From where does the spirit exit a chick that dies in the egg?; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: From where it entered (Neutralizes the riddle with symmetry; rejects the mystery premise)

12. 12 - Athenian Challenge: Show a vessel whose damage exceeds its worth; R’ Yehoshua’s Response: They bring oversized mats; to get them inside they must break the gate (The gate-breaking costs more than the mats; a literal enactment of the category)

Part 3

Capturing the Athenian philosophers and bringing them before the Roman Emperor

1. The emperor initially doubts they are truly the Athenian sages because they appear subdued; R’ Yehoshua sprinkles them with Athenian dirt; the familiar scent restores their characteristic arrogance; The emperor, satisfied, gives R’ Yehoshua authority over them

2. The Final Defeat: The Water of the House of the Swallowed

The Passage

Bekhorot.8b.4-9a.2

Part 1

Opening Exchange: Snake Gestation

The emperor asks R’ Yehoshua how long a snake gestates. R’ Yehoshua answers: 7 years. The emperor challenges him by citing experiments performed by the “elders of Athens,” whose snakes gave birth after 3 years.

R’ Yehoshua asserts that those snakes had been pregnant for 4 years beforehand. The emperor objects: the Athenians observed the snakes having sex, which should indicate non-pregnancy. R’ Yehoshua replies that snakes have sex “like people”.⁴

1. אמר ליה קיסר לרבי יהושע בן חנניה: נחש לכמה מיעבר ומוליד?

   1. אמר ליה: לשב שני.

2. והא סבי דבי אתונא ארבעינהו, ואוליד לתלת!

   1. הנהו מיעברי הוו מעיקרא ארבע.

3. והא קמשמשי שמושי!

   1. אינהו נמי משמשי כאדם.

§ With regard to the gestation time of a snake, the Talmud relates that

1. the Roman emperor said to R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya: In the case of a snake, after how long a period of gestation does it give birth?

   1. R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya said to him: After 7 years.

2. The emperor said to him: But the elders, i.e., the sages, of the school of Athens bred snakes and they gave birth after 3 years.

   1. R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya responded: Those snakes were already pregnant from beforehand for 4 years.

3. The emperor asked: But they had sex, and animals do so only in order to give birth, not when they are already pregnant.

   1. R’ Yehoshua responded: Snakes also have sex like people, i.e., they do not do so solely for reproduction.

The emperor orders R’ Yehoshua to defeat the Athenian sages; R’ Yehoshua requests a ship with 60 rooms, each furnished with 60 mattresses (a logistical device he will later use to isolate the Athenians)

1. והא חכימי אינהו?

   1. אנן חכימינן מינייהו.

2. אי חכימת, זיל זכינהו ואיתינהו לי!

   1. אמר ליה: כמה הוו?

3. שיתין גברי.

   1. אמר ליה: עביד לי ספינתא דאית בה שיתין בתי, וכל ביתא אית בה שיתין ביסתרקי.

עבד ליה.

1. The emperor said to him: But how can you disagree with the sages of Athens? Aren’t they wise?

   1. R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya responded: We (=Jews) are wiser than they.

2. The emperor said: If you are wiser than they, then go defeat them in debate and bring them to me.

   1. R’ Yehoshua said to him: How many are there?

3. The emperor answered: 60 men.

   1. R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya said to him: Construct a ship that has 60 rooms for me, and each room should have 60 mattresses [bistarkei] in it.

The emperor constructed it for him.

Journey to Athens; Dialogue with a local butcher

כי מטא להתם

לבי טבחא,

אשכחיה לההוא גברא דקא פשיט חיותא.

1. אמר ליה: רישך לזבוני?

   1. אמר ליה: אין.

2. אמר ליה: בכמה?

   1. אמר ליה: בפלגא דזוזא.

יהב ליה.

R’ Yehoshua then set out on the ship for Athens.

When he arrived there,

he entered a butcher shop

and found a certain man, the butcher, flaying an animal.

1. R’ Yehoshua said to him: Is your head for sale?

   1. The butcher said to him: Yes it is.

2. R’ Yehoshua said to him: For how much is it being sold?

   1. The butcher said to him: For half a dinar.

R’ Yehoshua gave him the money.

R’ Yehoshua threatens the butcher who quoted a price for “a head,” exploiting the ambiguity to force him to reveal the entrance to the Athenians’ academy; The butcher, afraid of being killed for revealing it, marks the spot with a bundle of reeds

לסוף,

1. אמר ליה: אנא רישא דחיותא אמרי לך?

2. אמר ליה: אי בעית דאשבקך — סגי אחוי לי פיתחא דבי אתונא.

   1. אמר ליה: מסתפינא, דכל דמחוי קטלי ליה.

3. אמר ליה: דרי כריכא דקניא, וכי מטית להתם -- זקפה כמאן דקא מתפח.

After R’ Yehoshua paid the butcher,

1. he said to him: Did I say to you that I wanted the head of the animal? I was referring to your head, and you must now keep your word and give me your head.

2. R’ Yehoshua said to him: If you wish for me to let you be, go and show me the entrance to the school of the sages of Athens.

   1. The butcher said to him: I am afraid, as they kill anyone who shows its location to another.

3. R’ Yehoshua said to him: Carry a bundle of reeds, and when you arrive there -- stand it up like one who is resting, to mark the location.

The butcher did this, and R’ Yehoshua successfully found the entrance.

Entering the Academy: Guards stand both inside and outside (and sand is spread to reveal footprints)

אשכח

• דרבנאי מגואי

• ודרבנאי מבראי,

• דאי חזו כרעא דעיילא —

  • קטלי להו לבראי,

• ודנפקא —

  • קטלי להו לגואי.

R’ Yehoshua found

• guards⁵ stationed on the inside

• and guards stationed on the outside

to ensure that no one could enter or exit. They also spread sand on the ground in the entranceway so that they could detect if anyone entered or left.

• If they saw footsteps that were entering --

  • they would kill the outer guards for allowing people to enter,

• and if they saw footsteps that were exiting --

  • they would kill the inner guards for allowing people to leave.⁶

R’ Yehoshua reverses his sandal (to simulate exit-prints), causing the inner guards to be killed; He repeats the tactic to implicate the outer guards (thus enabling entry)

• אפכה לסנדליה —

  • קטלי להו לגואי,

• אפכה לסנדליה —

  • קטלי להו לכולהו.

• R’ Yehoshua reversed his sandal so it was facing away from the entrance, walked on the sand, and snuck away, thereby creating the appearance of someone who had left the building --

  • When the authorities saw the footsteps, they killed the inner guards.

• R’ Yehoshua then returned, reversed his sandal, and made footsteps in the sand indicating that someone had entered the building --

  • They then killed all the guards, including the outer ones, and R’ Yehoshua succeeded in entering the building.

Inside, he observes younger scholars seated above elder scholars -- If he greets the young ones first, the elders will be insulted; if he greets the elders first, the young will resent it; He therefore offers a neutral greeting to all

אשכח

• ינוקי מלעיל,

• סבי מלתחת.

אמר:

אי יהיבנא שלמא להני --

קטלי לי הני,

סברי:

אנן עדיפינן,

דאנן קשינן טפי

ואינהו דרדקי.

אמר:

שלמא לכו.

R’ Yehoshua found

• the younger sages sitting in the upper, more prominent section,

• and the elder ones in the lower section.

He said to himself: I must first greet the younger sages, as they are sitting in the upper section, prior to the elder sages;

but if I greet these younger sages first --

those elder sages will kill me,

as they maintain:

We are better,

because we are older

and they are children.

R’ Yehoshua said:

Greetings to you,

but did not directly address either group.

1. For the sugya immediately previous to this one, see my three-part series, “Patterns in Animal and Plant Reproduction According to the Talmud, with Comparison With Modern Biological Scientific Knowledge (Bekhorot 7b-8a)”, final part here.

See the excellent discussion of this sugya by Christine Hayes, “Rabbinic Literature: To See and See Again”, in NTT Journal for Theology and the Study of Religion, 78:3 (2024), section 2, “Three Perspectives on the Story of R. Yehoshua ben Ḥanania (b. Bekh. 8b–9a)” (pp. 152-168), with citation of previous scholarly literature.

She notes there, pp. 164-165:

While it is likely that our rabbinic story drew from both tales, R. Yehoshua shares many more of the character traits of the comic Aesop than the sober Ahiqar [...] Aesop, on the other hand, cuts a very different and decidedly anti-heroic figure, as does R. Yehoshua. Like Aesop (and even Socrates, that other legendary opponent of the sophists) who is described as physically deformed and ugly with blackened skin and a pot belly, R. Yehoshua is described as ugly by the emperor’s daughter. Like Aesop and similar figures in Greek comedy, R. Yehoshua defeats a variety of enemies with riddles and stories about animals [...]

In short, our Talmudic storyteller has modelled R. Yehoshua on Aesop. He does not offer wise sayings and counsel like Ahiqar, so much as concrete demonstrations and sophistry like Aesop; his examples involve animals real and imagined (the mythical lion, the fertile mule, mating snakes, unhatched chickens, and cheese-producing goats); and he answers absurd questions with equally absurd questions. Like Aesop, he takes aim at both empirical science (in the first dialogue) and pseudo-wisdom (in the second dialogue) to comic effect. He defeats science with sophistry, and then exposes the absurdity and futility of the Athenians’ sophistry. He does not deploy rational or logical argumentation for, like Aesop, R. Yehoshua is both anti-philosopher and anti-sophist.

For another somewhat similar series of dialogues of interlocutors with R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya, see my piece on his interaction with “Alexandrians”: “Aggadah, Folly, and Conduct: R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥanania’s Responses to the Alexandrians’ Questions (Niddah 70b-71a)”.

And see these other stories featuring R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya’s cleverness:

• Gigantic Lion; Blinding Sun; Massive Meals; and God the Carpenter: Four Stories of R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya’s Interactions With the Roman Emperor (Chullin 59b-60a)

• Wisdom from the Margins: Clever Women and Children in Talmudic Tales (Eruvin 53b)

See also these pieces of mine on Greco-Roman style philosophical dialogues:

• Two-part series, “Alexander the Great’s Dialogue with the Elders of the Negev: Philosophical Insights on Creation, Life, and Power (Tamid 32a)”, final part here

• Three-part series, “Defending God, Biblical Monotheism, and Jewish Distinctiveness: Twelve Dialogues Between Sages and Challengers in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 38b-39a)”, final part here

• Four Philosophical Dialogues Between R’ Yehuda Hanasi and the Roman Antoninus (Sanhedrin 91a-b)

• Symbolic Dialogues and Strategic Counsel: Six Stories of Antoninus and R’ Yehuda HaNasi (Avodah Zarah 10a-b)

Throughout this sugya, I use numbered lists with sub-items to indicate dialogues.

Note that this entire sugya is unusually ambiguous and unclear. As always, I follow the interpretation of ed. Steinsaltz throughout.

2. סבי דבי אתונא - literally: “the elders of the house (=school) of Athens”.

3. R’ Yehoshua ben Ḥananya’s responses rely heavily on sarcasm and irony. On this general tendency in Talmudic rhetoric, compare my “Answering Questions with Questions: On The Frequent Use of Rhetorical Questions in the Talmud“.

4. משמשי כאדם - i.e. not solely for reproduction.

See the similar phrase in the previous sugya, from a baraita, about dolphins:, in my “Pt1 Patterns in Animal and Plant Reproduction According to the Talmud, with Comparison With Modern Biological Scientific Knowledge (Bekhorot 7b-8a)“, section “Pt1 - Reproduction patterns of fish; mammals; bats; dolphins - 4 rules“

הדולפנין פרין ורבין כבני אדם

מאי דולפנין?

אמר רב יהודה: בני ימא

The dulfanin reproduce (פרין ורבין) like people.

The Talmud asks: What are dulfanin?

Rav Yehuda says: They are creatures that are called sons of the sea.

5. דרבנאי - from Greek dorŭphóros: “spear-bearing“.

See Jastrow (modernized), דָּרְבְּנָאָה:

goad-bearers (an adaptation of δορυφόροι [=dorŭphóroi] in speaking of Athens), guardsmen.

Bekhorot 8b:8 (Arukh דָּרְבּוֹנֵי).

6. Compare the Talmud’s somewhat similar similar depiction of severe security measures in the stories concerning the Roman Antoninus and Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi in Avodah Zarah 10a-b (cited in footnote 1), section “Antoninus’s Secret Visits: A Tale of Secrecy and Resurrection“, where I summarize:

Antoninus had a secret tunnel (נקרתא) connecting his house to that of R’ Yehuda HaNasi.

To keep his visits secret, Antoninus would bring two slaves each time, killing one at the entrance of R’ Yehuda HaNasi’s house and the other at his own, ensuring no one knew of his visits.

He instructed R’ Yehuda HaNasi to make sure no one else was present when he visited.