Pt1 Talmudic Theodicy: Moses’ Requests, Divine Responses, and the Mystery of Divine Justice (Berakhot 7a-b)

This is the first part of a two-part series. The outline of the series is below.

This sugya unfolds a set of aggadic teachings centered on Moses' dialogue with God in Exodus 33–34, immediately after the sin of the Golden Calf. R' Yoḥanan, citing R' Yosei, opens with the assertion that Moses requested three things from God and was granted all three: that the Shekhina would rest upon Israel and not depart, that it would not rest upon other nations, and that God would reveal His ways. These are grounded in Exodus 33:13–16.

Moses’ final request leads into one of the oldest theological problems: why the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper.¹ God's answer, initially framed in terms of ancestral merit or guilt, is ultimately revised: it depends on whether one is completely righteous or wicked. Partial virtue or sin is rewarded or punished in this world to reserve a corresponding opposite fate in the World-to-Come.

This theological stance, however, is not universally accepted. R' Meir argues that only two of Moses’ requests were granted; God's ways remain ultimately unknowable. R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa goes further, claiming God denied Moses' request to see His glory as punishment for Moses having previously hidden his face at the burning bush. R' Shmuel bar Naḥmani, by contrast, sees Moses’ modesty there as the reason he was later rewarded with spiritual radiance and closeness to God.

From this central episode, the sugya branches into related traditions. R' Yoḥanan, often citing either R' Yosei or R' Shimon ben Yoḥai, builds a broader theology of divine justice, human merit, and prayer. He teaches that divine promises for good are never revoked, even if conditional; that the biblical matriarch Leah was the first to thank God; and that Abraham was the first to call God 'Master', which in turn justifies Daniel’s prayer.

Other statements explore the power of prayer, the importance of a fixed place for prayer, and the challenges of evil both from within one’s household and from foreign enemies. The rabbis debate whether one may provoke the wicked—R' Shimon ben Yoḥai and R' Dostai permit it, while R' Yitzḥak and Rav Huna caution against it, especially when the wicked are prospering.

Running through the sugya is a tension between what is revealed and what remains hidden: God's ways, His mercy, the meaning of biblical history, and the consequences of individual action. The sugya offers no singular theology but rather a chorus of voices—conflicting, revising, extending—anchored in biblical exegesis.

Outline

Intro

The Passage - Talmudic Theodicy: Moses’ Requests, Divine Responses, and the Mystery of Divine Justice (Berakhot 7a-b)

1. R' Yoḥanan citing R' Yosei - Moses requested 3 things: Shekhina to rest only on Jews, and to understand God’s ways; All were granted - Exodus 33:16

   1. Moses asks God: Why do the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper?

   2. God responds: due to the person’s ancestral merit or guilt

   3. Divine punishment for ancestral transgressions - Exodus 34:7 vs. Deuteronomy 24:16

   4. Complete vs. Partial Righteousness/Wickedness

2. R' Meir - Disagrees: only 2 of Moses’ requests granted; God's ways not revealed - Exodus 33:19

3. R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa - Moses was denied vision of God’s glory because he earlier declined at the burning bush - Exodus 3:6

4. R' Shmuel bar Naḥmani citing R' Yonatan - Moses was rewarded for hiding his face with 3 spiritual privileges - Exodus 3:6; 34:30; Numbers 12:8

5. Rav Ḥana bar Bizna citing R' Shimon Ḥasida - “You will see My back” means God showed Moses the knot of His tefillin - Exodus 33:23

6. R' Yoḥanan citing R' Yosei - A divine promise for good is never retracted, even if conditional - Deuteronomy 9:14; 1 Chronicles 23:17

   1. Biblical prooftext; Moses descendants were numerous; Rav Yosef - "Many" = over 600,000, based on verbal analogy to Israelites in Egypt - Exodus 1:7; 1 Chronicles 23:17

7. R' Yoḥanan citing R' Shimon ben Yoḥai - Abraham was the first to call God “Master” (Adonai) - Genesis 15:8

8. Rav - Daniel’s prayer was accepted due to Abraham’s merit - Daniel 9:17

9. Etymologies of Biblical Names - Judah; Reuben; and Ruth

   1. R' Yoḥanan citing R' Shimon ben Yoḥai - Leah was the first person to thank God - Genesis 29:35

   2. R' Elazar - Leah named Reuben to contrast her son’s lack of envy with Esau’s jealousy

      1. Esau’s unreasonable hatred of his brother Jacob after Esau willingly sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:33, 27:36,41)

      2. Reuben saved his brother Joseph even though Reuben’s birthright had been transferred to Joseph (I Chronicles 5:1; Genesis 37:21)

   3. R' Yoḥanan - Ruth was named thus because David “inundated” God with praise

10. R' Eliezer - A person’s name can determine their fate - Psalms 46:9

11. R' Yoḥanan citing R' Shimon ben Yoḥai - Wayward children are harder than the war of Gog and Magog - Psalms 3:1–2 vs. Psalms 2:1

12. R' Shimon ben Avishalom - David rejoiced when he saw Absalom was the fulfillment of God’s threat—it wasn’t a slave or a mamzer - II Samuel 12:11

13. Provoking the wicked

    1. R' Yoḥanan citing R' Shimon ben Yoḥai - One may provoke the wicked - Proverbs 28:4

    2. R' Dostai ben Matun - Same: one may provoke the wicked - Proverbs 28:4

    3. “Don’t compete with the wicked” = don’t be like the wicked (Psalms 37:1; Proverbs 23:17)

    4. R' Yitzḥak - Don’t provoke the wicked when they are prospering - Psalms 10:5

14. Rav Huna - the wicked “swallowing” the righteous - Habakkuk 1:13

    1. (Psalms 37:32–33; Proverbs 12:21)

    2. Completely righteous vs. not completely righteous

15. R' Yoḥanan citing R' Shimon ben Yoḥai - One who sets a fixed place for prayer defeats his enemies - II Samuel 7:10

16. Rav Huna - The goal of Israel’s enemies evolves from affliction to annihilation - II Samuel 7:10 vs. I Chronicles 17:9

The Passage

Berakhot.7a.23-7b.25

R' Yoḥanan citing R' Yosei - Moses requested 3 things: Shekhina to rest only on Jews, and to understand God’s ways; All were granted - Exodus 33:16

(See footnote.)²

ואמר רבי יוחנן, משום רבי יוסי:

שלשה דברים בקש משה מלפני הקדוש ברוך הוא,

ונתן לו.

And R' Yoḥanan said in the name of R' Yosei

regarding Moses’ request that the Shekhina rest upon Israel as it once had:

Moses requested three things from God, at that time,

all of which were granted him.

1. בקש שתשרה שכינה על ישראל,

   1. ונתן לו,

   2. שנאמר: ״הלוא בלכתך עמנו״.

2. בקש שלא תשרה שכינה על עובדי כוכבים,

   1. ונתן לו,

   2. שנאמר: ״ונפלינו אני ועמך״.

3. בקש להודיעו דרכיו של הקדוש ברוך הוא,

   1. ונתן לו,

   2. שנאמר: ״הודיעני נא את דרכיך״,

1. He requested that the Shekhina rest upon Israel and not leave,

   1. and He granted it to him,

   2. as it is stated: “For how can it be known that I have found grace in Your sight, I and Your people? Is it not in that You go with us, so that we are distinguished, I and Your people, from all the people that are on the face of the earth?” (Exodus 33:16). The request: Is it not in that You go with us, refers to the resting of the Shekhina upon Israel.

2. Moses requested that the Shekhina not rest upon non-Jews,

   1. and He granted it to him,

   2. as it is stated: “So that we are distinguished, I and Your people, from all the people on the face of the earth” (Exodus 33:16).

3. Lastly, Moses requested that the ways in which God conducts the world be revealed to him,

   1. and He granted it to him,

   2. as it is stated: “Show me Your ways and I will know You” (Exodus 33:13).

Moses asks God: Why do the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper?

(See footnote.)³

אמר לפניו:

רבונו של עולם!

מפני מה

1. יש צדיק וטוב לו,

2. ויש צדיק ורע לו,

3. יש רשע וטוב לו,

4. ויש רשע ורע לו?

Moses said before God:

God!

Why is it that

1. the righteous prosper,⁴

2. the righteous suffer,

3. the wicked prosper,

4. the wicked suffer?

God responds: due to the person’s ancestral merit or guilt

אמר לו:

משה!

1. צדיק וטוב לו —

   1. צדיק בן צדיק

2. צדיק ורע לו —

   1. צדיק בן רשע.

3. רשע וטוב לו —

   1. רשע בן צדיק.

4. רשע ורע לו —

   1. רשע בן רשע.

God said to him:

Moses!

1. the righteous person who prospers

   1. is a righteous person, the son of a righteous person (צדיק בן צדיק),

   2. who is rewarded for the actions of his ancestors.⁵

2. The righteous person who suffers

   1. is a righteous person, the son of a wicked person,

   2. who is punished for the transgressions of his ancestors.

3. The wicked person who prospers

   1. is a wicked person, the son of a righteous person,

   2. who is rewarded for the actions of his ancestors.

4. The wicked person who suffers

   1. is a wicked person, the son of a wicked person,

   2. who is punished for the transgressions of his ancestors.

Divine punishment for ancestral transgressions - Exodus 34:7 vs. Deuteronomy 24:16

אמר מר:

• צדיק וטוב לו —

  • צדיק בן צדיק,

• צדיק ורע לו —

  • צדיק בן רשע.

איני?

• והא כתיב:

  • ״פקד עון אבות על בנים״,

• וכתיב:

  • ״ובנים לא יומתו על אבות״,

The Talmud expands upon these righteous and wicked individuals:

The Master said:

• The righteous person who prospers

  • is a righteous person, the son of a righteous person.

• The righteous person who suffers

  • is a righteous person, the son of a wicked person.

ורמינן קראי אהדדי

The Talmud asks: Is it so that one is always punished for his ancestors’ transgressions?

• Isn’t it written:

  • “He visits iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and fourth generations” (Exodus 34:7).

• And it is written elsewhere:

  • “Fathers shall not die for their children, and children shall not be put to death for the fathers; every man shall die for his own transgression” (Deuteronomy 24:16).

a contradiction between the two verses.

ומשנינן:

לא קשיא,

• הא —

  • כשאוחזין מעשה אבותיהם בידיהם,

• הא —

  • כשאין אוחזין מעשה אבותיהם בידיהם.

The Talmud resolves the contradiction:

This is not difficult.

• This verse from Exodus, which states that God punishes descendants for the transgressions of their ancestors,

  • refers to a case where they adopt the actions of their ancestors as their own.

• While this verse from Deuteronomy, which states that descendants are not punished for the actions of their ancestors,

  • refers to a case where they do not adopt the actions of their ancestors as their own, as it is stated: “I visit iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and fourth generations of my enemies” (Exodus 20:5).

Complete vs. Partial Righteousness/Wickedness

אלא, הכי קאמר ליה:

1. צדיק וטוב לו —

   1. צדיק גמור,

2. צדיק ורע לו —

   1. צדיק שאינו גמור,

3. רשע וטוב לו —

   1. רשע שאינו גמור,

4. רשע ורע לו —

   1. רשע גמור.

A righteous person is clearly not punished for the transgressions of his ancestors.

Rather, it must be that God said to Moses as follows:

1. The righteous person who prospers

   1. is a completely righteous person⁶

   2. whose actions are entirely good and whose reward is entirely good both in this world and in the World-to-Come.

2. The righteous person who suffers

   1. is one who is not a completely righteous person.

   2. Because he does have some transgressions, he is punished in this world so that he will receive a complete reward in the World-to-Come.

3. The wicked person who prospers

   1. is one who is not a completely wicked person.

   2. God rewards him in this world for the good deeds that he performed, so that he will receive a complete punishment in the World-to-Come.

4. Finally, the wicked person who suffers

   1. is a completely wicked person.

   2. Since he performed absolutely no mitzvot and deserves no reward, he receives only punishment both in this world and in the World-to-Come (Maharsha).

R' Meir - Disagrees: only two of Moses’ requests granted; God's ways not revealed - Exodus 33:19

ופליגא דרבי מאיר,

דאמר רבי מאיר:

שתים נתנו לו

ואחת לא נתנו לו,

R' Yoḥanan’s opinion, that God granted Moses all three of his requests, disagrees with that of R' Meir,

as R' Meir said:

Two of Moses’ requests were granted to him,

and one was not granted to him.

God granted him that the Shekhina would rest upon Israel and not leave, and that the Shekhina would not rest upon the nations of the world, but God did not reveal to Moses the ways in which He conducts the world.

שנאמר:

• ״וחנתי את אשר אחון״ —

  • אף על פי שאינו הגון,

• ״ורחמתי את אשר ארחם״ —

  • אף על פי שאינו הגון.

As it is said:

• “And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious” (Exodus 33:19);

  • in His mercy, God bestows His grace upon every person, even though he is not worthy (הגון)

• Similarly, God says: “And I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy,”

  • even though he is not worthy.

According to R' Meir, the way in which God conducts the world and bestows grace and mercy was not revealed even to Moses.

R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa - Moses was denied vision of God’s glory because he earlier declined at the burning bush - Exodus 3:6

״ויאמר לא תוכל לראות את פני״,

תנא משמיה דרבי יהושע בן קרחה,

כך אמר לו הקדוש ברוך הוא למשה:

• כשרציתי —

  • לא רצית,

• עכשיו שאתה רוצה —

  • איני רוצה.

The Talmud continues to cite the rabbis’ explanation of verses that require clarification on the same topic.

With regard to God’s statement to Moses, “And He said: ‘You cannot see My face, for man shall not see Me and live’” (Exodus 33:20),

it was taught in the name of R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa that

God said to Moses as follows:

• When I wanted to show you My glory at the burning bush,

  • you did not want to see it, as it is stated: “And Moses concealed his face, fearing to gaze upon God” (Exodus 3:6).

• But now that you want to see My glory, as you said: “Show me Your glory,”

  • I do not want to show it to you.

R' Yehoshua ben Korḥa interprets Moses’ initial refusal to look upon God’s glory negatively, as he rebuffed God’s desire to be close to him.

R' Shmuel bar Naḥmani citing R' Yonatan - Moses was rewarded for hiding his face with 3 spiritual privileges - Exodus 3:6; 34:30; Numbers 12:8

ופליגא דרבי שמואל בר נחמני, אמר רבי יונתן,

דאמר רבי שמואל בר נחמני, אמר רבי יונתן:

בשכר שלש --

זכה לשלש.

This disagrees with that which R' Shmuel bar Naḥmani said that R' Yonatan said,

as R' Shmuel bar Naḥmani said that R' Yonatan said:

Specifically as a reward for three acts of humility in averting his glance at the burning bush --

Moses was privileged to experience three great revelations:

1. בשכר ״ויסתר משה פניו״ —

   1. זכה לקלסתר פנים.

2. בשכר ״כי ירא״ —

   1. זכה ל״וייראו מגשת אליו״.

3. בשכר ״מהביט״ —

   1. זכה ל״ותמנת ה׳ יביט״.

1. Because “Moses concealed his face, fearing to gaze upon God” (Exodus 3:6),

   1. he was privileged to have his countenance⁷ glow.

2. Because he “feared,”

   1. he was privileged that “they feared to approach him” (Exodus 34:30).

3. Because he did not “gaze” (הביט)

   1. he was privileged to “gaze (יביט) at the likeness of YHWH” (Numbers 12:8).

Rav Ḥana bar Bizna citing R' Shimon Ḥasida - “You will see My back” means God showed Moses the knot of His tefillin - Exodus 33:23

״והסרתי את כפי

וראית את אחרי״

אמר רב חנא בר ביזנא, אמר רבי שמעון חסידא:

מלמד ש:

הראה הקדוש ברוך הוא למשה קשר של תפילין.

What did Moses see?

It is said:

“And I will remove My hand,

and you will see My back, but My face you will not see” (Exodus 33:23).

Rav Ḥana bar Bizna said in the name of R' Shimon Ḥasida, the expression:

“And you will see My back,” should be understood as follows: This teaches that

God, Who, as mentioned above, wears tefillin,⁸ showed him the knot of the tefillin of His head, which is worn on the back of the head.

R' Yoḥanan citing R' Yosei - A divine promise for good is never retracted, even if conditional - Deuteronomy 9:14; 1 Chronicles 23:17

ואמר רבי יוחנן, משום רבי יוסי:

כל דבור ודבור שיצא מפי הקדוש ברוך הוא לטובה,

אפילו על תנאי —

לא חזר בו.

On this subject, R' Yoḥanan said in the name of R' Yosei:

Every statement to a person or to a nation that emerged from the mouth of God, with a promise of good,

even if it was conditional,

He did not renege on it.

Ultimately, every promise made by God will be fulfilled.

Proof - Moses descendants were numerous; Rav Yosef - "Many" = over 600,000, based on verbal analogy to Israelites in Egypt - Exodus 1:7; 1 Chronicles 23:17

מנא לן?

ממשה רבינו,

שנאמר:

״הרף ממני ואשמידם וגו׳

ואעשה אותך לגוי עצום״.

אף על גב דבעא משה רחמי עלה דמלתא

ובטלה,

אפילו הכי — אוקמה בזרעיה.

From where do we derive that all of God’s promises are fulfilled?

We know this from Moses our teacher,

as God promised and said:

“Leave Me alone; I will destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven;

and I will make from you a nation mightier and greater than they” (Deuteronomy 9:14).

Even though Moses prayed to have the decree repealed,

and it was nullified,

the promise was fulfilled and Moses’ descendants became a nation mightier and greater than the 600,000 Israelites in the desert.

שנאמר:

״בני משה:

גרשום ואליעזר.

ויהיו בני אליעזר: רחביה הראש וגו׳

ובני רחביה רבו למעלה וגו׳״.

ותני רב יוסף:

״למעלה״ — מששים רבוא,

אתיא

• ״רביה״

• ״רביה״.

• כתיב הכא:

  • ״רבו למעלה״,

• וכתיב התם:

  • ״ובני ישראל פרו וישרצו וירבו״.

As it is stated with regard to the Levites:

“The sons of Moses:

Gershom and Eliezer…

and the sons of Eliezer were: Reḥaviya the chief.

And Eliezer had no other sons; and the sons of Reḥaviya were very many” (I Chronicles 23:15–17).

And Rav Yosef taught in a baraita:

“Many” means more than 600,000.

This is learned through a verbal analogy between the words

• “many” (רביה)

• and “many”

• It is written here with regard to Reḥaviya’s sons:

  • “Were very many” (רבו)

• And it is written there with regard to the Israelites in Egypt:

  • “And the children of Israel became numerous and multiplied and were very many (וירבו), and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them” (Exodus 1:7).

Just as when the children of Israel were in Egypt, “very many” meant that there were 600,000 of them, so too the descendants of Reḥaviya were 600,000.

1. This question is known as “theodicy”.

The question is famously the topic of the Book of Job. Compare the Talmudic sugya about the Book of Job in my pieces:

• three-part series “Book of Job in Talmudic Interpretation: Job's Contested Righteousness and Satan's Character (Bava Batra 15b-16b)“, final part here.

• “‘Iyov’ (“Job”) or ‘Oyev’ (“Enemy”)? God's Precise Control of Nature and the Rhetorical Rebuttal of Job’s Accusation in Job 38-39 (Bava Batra 16a-b)“

And see also the aphorism in my “Tannaitic Aphorisms (Avot 4:15-22)“, section “R' Yannai - Human reason can’t explain theodicy—the success of the wicked or suffering of the righteous (4:15)“.

2. Compare the similar passage in my “The Giving of the Torah in Exodus 19: Timing, Preparation, and Moses' Bold Decisions (Shabbat 86b-87a)“, citing a baraita starting with ibid., section “Three Actions Moses Took on His Own Authority, and God approved (Exodus 32:19)“:

שלשה דברים עשה משה מדעתו,

והסכים הקדוש ברוך הוא עמו

Moses did three things based on his own perception (מדעתו)

and God agreed with him

The baraita then lists the three things, and elaborates on each one. The similarity to here is that both are framed as lists of three things that Moses did vis a vis God. The difference is that here all are Moses’ actions taken of his own initiative relating to the episode of the Giving of the Torah in the Book of Exodus; while here, they’re requests of Moses from God.

3. In terms of literary structure, this four-part list can be viewed as a 2x2 grid (see my tables in the next sections).

Compare the similarly structured 4-part lists in my “Pt2 Aggadic Lists of Ten, Seven, Four, and Two Items in Tractate Avot Chapter 5 (Avot 5:1-19)“, section “Lists of 4“, and see my note there re the structure and formula.

4. יש צדיק וטוב לו.

Literally: “there is a righteous person, and it is good for him”.

On divine reward and punishment in general in Talmudic thought, see Hebrew Wikipedia, “תורת הגמול“. The main divine reward and punishment is typically understood to happen in the afterlife/World-to-Come; on this, see my:

• “Barred from the Afterlife: Heretics, Biblical Sinners, and Groups Denied a Share in the World-to-Come (Mishnah Sanhedrin 10:1-4)“, in my intro

• “Between This World and the Next: Talmudic Conceptions of the World-to-Come and Resurrection of the Dead“

5. On the importance of ancestral merit in the Talmud, compare my “Divine Symbols and Historical Shifts: The Significance of the Tav Mark in Ezekiel and the Precise Moment of the Patriarchs' Merit's End (Shabbat 55a)“.

And see also my “Pt1 Power, Pedagogy, and Internal Rabbinic Politics: The Deposition of Rabban Gamliel, the Appointment of R' Elazar ben Azarya, and Eventual Reconciliation (Berakhot 27b-28a)“, section “Deliberating a Successor: Criteria and Candidates; Disqualifying R' Yehoshua and R' Akiva“:

מאן נוקים ליה?

[…]

נוקמיה לרבי עקיבא?

דילמא עניש ליה,

דלית ליה זכות אבות.

אלא נוקמיה לרבי אלעזר בן עזריה

[…]

והוא עשירי לעזרא —

דאית ליה זכות אבות,

ולא מצי עניש ליה.

the question arose: Whom shall we establish in Rabban Gamliel’s place?

[…]

Shall we establish R' Akiva in his place?

The rabbis rejected that option because R' Akiva, who descended from a family of converts, would be vulnerable. Perhaps due to Rabban Gamliel’s resentment he would cause him to be divinely punished

as he lacks the merit of his ancestors to protect him.

[…]

Rather, suggested the rabbis, let us establish R' Elazar ben Azarya in his place, his outstanding characteristics set him apart from the other candidates:

[…]

And he is a 10th generation descendant of Ezra --

so he has the merit of his ancestors,

and Rabban Gamliel will be unable to cause him to be punished.

6. צדיק גמור.

On this expression and general ranking, compare my piece here, “Appendix 1 - The Divine Books that Record Human Righteous and Sinful Activity (Rosh Hashanah 16b)“, section “R' Kruspedai citing R' Yoḥanan - God opens three books on Rosh HaShana—for wicked, righteous, and average people“:

אמר רבי כרוספדאי, אמר רבי יוחנן:

שלשה ספרים נפתחין בראש השנה:

1. אחד של רשעים גמורין,

2. ואחד של צדיקים גמורין,

3. ואחד של בינוניים

§ The Talmud goes back to discuss the Day of Judgment.

R' Kruspedai said that R' Yoḥanan said:

Three books are opened on Rosh HaShana before God:

1. One of wholly wicked people,

2. and one of wholly righteous people,

3. and one of medium (בינוניים - i.e. those in between/middle) people whose good and bad deeds are equally balanced.

7. קלסתר - from Latin.

See my discussion of the etymology of this word in a note on “Pt2 From Conception to Birth: Talmudic Perspectives on Fetal Development and Gender (Niddah 31a-b)“, section “The three partners in creating a person: God, the father, and the mother; and the corresponding body parts“.

8. On God’s tefillin, see the discussion earlier in Berakhot.6a.17-20.