Pt6 The Messianic Era in the Talmud: Appendices Part A (Sanhedrin 96b-99a)

The Story of Rav Tavut and the City Named “Truth” where even minor lies caused death; Conditional vs. Unconditional Redemption: A Major Tannaitic Dispute Between R’ Eliezer and R’ Yehoshua

This is the sixth part of a seven-part series.¹

[pt6] Appendices

Appendix 1 - The Story of Rav Tavut and the City Named “Truth” where even minor lies caused death (Sanhedrin 97a)

Sanhedrin.97a.6-7

Rava states that he formerly believed that truth no longer existed in the world, until meeting Rav Tavut / Tavyomei, who told him that he would never lie even “if they were to give him the entire world”

אמר רבא:

מריש הוה אמינא --

ליכא קושטא בעלמא.

אמר לי ההוא מרבנן,

ורב טבות שמיה

ואמרי לה: רב טביומי שמיה

דאי הוו יהבי ליה כל חללי דעלמא --

לא הוה משני בדיבוריה.

§ Concerning the lack of truth, Rava says:

Initially I would say that --

there is no truth anywhere in the world.

There was a certain one of the rabbis,

and Rav Tavut is his name,

and some say: Rav Tavyomei is his name,

who was so honest that if they were to give him the entire world --

he would not deviate from the truth in his statement.²

This Rav Tavut / Tavyomei told him of a place literally called Kushta (“Truth”), whose residents never lied and no one died prematurely; Rav Tavut married a woman from there and had two children

זימנא חדא

איקלעי לההוא אתרא, וקושטא שמיה,

ולא הוו משני בדיבורייהו,

ולא הוה מיית איניש מהתם בלא זימניה.

נסיבי איתתא מינהון,

והוו לי תרין בנין מינה.

He said to me:

One time

I happened to come to a certain place, and Truth (קושטא) is its name,

and its residents would not deviate from the truth in their statements,

and no person from there would die prematurely.

I married a woman from among them,

and I had two sons from her.

Once, while his wife was washing her hair, a neighbor knocked; Thinking it improper to say that his wife was bathing, Rav Tavut told her she was not home; As soon as he deviated from the truth, his two children died

יומא חד הוה יתבא דביתהו וקא חייפא רישא.

אתאי שיבבתה, טרפא אדשא.

סברי: לאו אורח ארעא.

אמרי לה: ליתה הכא.

שכיבו ליה תרין בניה.

One day his wife was sitting and washing the hair on her head.

Her neighbor came and knocked on the door.

He thought: It is not proper conduct to tell the neighbor that his wife is bathing.

He said to her: She is not here.

Since he deviated from the truth his two sons died.

The townspeople confronted him; after he confessed what had happened, they asked him to leave so that he would not bring premature death upon others

אתו אינשי דאתרא לקמיה,

אמרו ליה: מאי האי?

אמר להו: הכי הוה מעשה.

אמרו ליה:

במטותא מינך,

פוק מאתרין

ולא תגרי בהו מותנא בהנך אינשי.

The people residing in that place came before him

and said to him: What is the meaning of this?!

He said to them: This was the nature of the incident, and told them what happened.

They said to him:

Please (במטותא מינך)

leave our place

and do not provoke premature death upon these people [=us]

Appendix 2 - The hierarchy of righteous people who perceive the Shekhina: row of the righteous before God extends 18,000 parasangs; 36 righteous people; 1,000 righteous people, or 100, or only 2 (Sanhedrin 97b)

Sanhedrin.97b.11-12

Abaye - Every generation has at least 36 righteous who greet the Shekhina - Isaiah 30:18

אמר אביי:

לא פחית עלמא מתלתין ושיתא צדיקי דמקבלי אפי שכינה בכל דרא,

שנאמר ״אשרי כל חוכי לו״ –

״לו״ בגימטריא תלתין ושיתא הוו.

[...]

Apropos that verse, Abaye said:

The world has no fewer than 36 righteous people in each generation who greet the Shekhina,

as it is stated: “Happy are all they who wait for Him [lo]” (Isaiah 30:18).

The numerical value (גימטריא) of lo (לו), spelled lamed vav, is 36.

[...]

Rav - The row of the righteous before God extends 18,000 parasangs

אמר רבא:

דרא דקמי קודשא בריך הוא תמני סרי אלפי פרסה הואי,

שנאמר ״סביב שמנה עשר אלף״

[...]

Rava says:

The row of the righteous before God extends 18,000 parasangs,

as it is stated with regard to the city of God at the end of days: “It shall be 18,000 reeds round about, and the name of the city from that day shall be: YHWH is there” (Ezekiel 48:35)

[...]

R’ Shimon bar Yoḥai - “I have seen members of the group of the spiritually prominent, who are truly righteous, and they are few; and I and my son are among them” - 1,000, or 100, or only 2

1. אמר חזקיה

2. אמר רבי ירמיה

3. משום רבי שמעון בן יוחי:

ראיתי בני עלייה --

והן מועטין.

1. אם אלף הם –

   1. אני ובני מהם,

2. אם מאה הם –

   1. אני ובני מהם,

3. אם שנים הם –

   1. אני ובני הם.

1. Ḥizkiyya says that

2. R’ Yirmeya says

3. in the name of R’ Shimon bar Yoḥai:

I have seen members of the group of the spiritually prominent,³ who are truly righteous --

and they are few.

1. If they number 1,000 --

   1. I [=R’ Shimon b. Yoḥai] and my son [=R’ Eleazar b. Shimon] are among them.

2. If they number 100 --

   1. I and my son are among them;

3. and if they number 2 --

   1. I and my son are they.

Appendix 3 - Conditional vs. Unconditional Redemption: A Major Tannaitic Dispute Between R’ Eliezer and R’ Yehoshua (Sanhedrin 97b-98a)

Sanhedrin.97b.14-98a.2

R. Eliezer - Only if Israel repents will they be redeemed

The Talmud records a fundamental dispute about whether Israel’s redemption depends on repentance:

R’ Eliezer asserts that redemption is conditional: if the Jewish people repent, they are redeemed; if not, they are not redeemed.

R’ Yehoshua rejects this. He posits that redemption is inevitable—if necessary, God will install a tyrant “whose decrees are as harsh as Haman’s,” forcing repentance and thereby bringing redemption.

כתנאי:

רבי אליעזר אומר:

• אם ישראל עושין תשובה –

  • נגאלין,

• ואם לאו –

  • אין נגאלין.

The Talmud notes: This dispute is parallel to a dispute between tanna’im:

R’ Eliezer says:

• If the Jewish people repent --

  • they are redeemed,

• and if not --

  • they are not redeemed.

R. Yehoshua - Redemption is ultimately unconditional; if needed, a harsh king will force repentance

אמר לו רבי יהושע:

אם אין עושין תשובה אין נגאלין?!

אלא:

הקדוש ברוך הוא מעמיד להן מלך שגזרותיו קשות כהמן,

וישראל עושין תשובה ומחזירן למוטב.

R’ Yehoshua said to him:

If they do not repent, will they not be redeemed at all?!

Rather,

God will establish a king for them whose decrees are as harsh as those issued by Haman,⁴

and the Jewish people will have no choice but to repent, and this will restore them to the right path.

Scriptural Exchange - 4 turns

Visualization of ensuing Scriptural Exchange - 4 turns:⁵

Scriptural Exchange #1 - Jeremiah 3:22; Isaiah 52:3

R’ Eliezer supports his opinion with Jeremiah 3:22: “Return, wayward children, I will heal your iniquities” (reading redemption as dependent on repentance)

תניא אידך:

רבי אליעזר אומר,

אם ישראל עושין תשובה –

נגאלין,

שנאמר:

״שובו בנים שובבים

ארפא משובתיכם״.

It is taught in another baraita that

R’ Eliezer says:

If the Jewish people repent --

they are redeemed,

as it is stated:

“Return, wayward children,

I will heal your iniquities” (Jeremiah 3:22).

R’ Yehoshua counters with Isaiah 52:3: “You were sold for naught, and without money you shall be redeemed”, interpreting “without money” as “without repentance and good deeds”

אמר לו רבי יהושע:

והלא כבר נאמר:

״חנם נמכרתם

ולא בכסף תגאלו״

• ״חנם נמכרתם״ –

  • בעבודה זרה,

• ״ולא בכסף תגאלו״ –

  • לא בתשובה ומעשים טובים.

R’ Yehoshua said to him:

But isn’t it already stated:

“So says YHWH: You were sold for naught,

and without money you shall be redeemed” (Isaiah 52:3)?

R’ Yehoshua explains:

• “You were sold for naught”

  • means you were sold for idol worship, which is a sin with no basis.

• “And without money you shall be redeemed”

  • means you will be redeemed not through repentance and good deeds, but through the will of God.

Scriptural Exchange #2 - Malachi 3:7; Jeremiah 3:14

R’ Eliezer cites Malachi 3:7: “Return to Me and I will return to you” (showing that redemption is reciprocal and contingent)

אמר לו רבי אליעזר לרבי יהושע:

והלא כבר נאמר

״שובו אלי

ואשובה אליכם״

R’ Eliezer said to R’ Yehoshua:

But isn’t it already stated:

“Return to me

and I will return to you” (Malachi 3:7)

R’ Yehoshua replies with Jeremiah 3:14: “I will take you one from a city and two from a family and bring you to Zion” (which implies a divine initiative independent of human repentance)

אמר לו רבי יהושע:

והלא כבר נאמר:

״כי אנכי בעלתי בכם

ולקחתי אתכם אחד מעיר ושנים ממשפחה

והבאתי אתכם ציון״

R’ Yehoshua said to him:

But isn’t it already stated:

“For I have taken you to Myself;

and I will take you one from a city and two from a family,

and I will bring you to Zion” (Jeremiah 3:14), unconditionally

Scriptural Exchange #3 - Isaiah 30:15; Isaiah 49:7

R’ Eliezer quotes Isaiah 30:15: “In returning and rest shall you be saved” (which reinforces the link between repentance and salvation)

אמר לו רבי אליעזר:

והלא כבר נאמר ״בשובה ונחת תושעון״

R’ Eliezer said to him:

But isn’t it already stated:

“In ease [be-shuva] and rest shall you be saved” (Isaiah 30:15),

indicating that redemption is dependent upon repentance [teshuva]

R’ Yehoshua responds with Isaiah 49:7 (where Israel’s redemption comes despite its degradation—proof that divine choice, not merit, determines redemption)

אמר לו רבי יהושע לרבי אליעזר:

והלא כבר נאמר:

״כה אמר ה׳ גאל ישראל קדושו

1. לבזה נפש

2. למתעב גוי

3. לעבד משלים:

מלכים יראו וקמו

שרים וישתחוו״

R’ Yehoshua said to R’ Eliezer:

But isn’t it already stated:

“So says YHWH, Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One,

1. to him who is despised of man,

2. to him who is abhorred of the nation,

3. to a servant of rulers:

Kings shall see and arise,

princes shall prostrate themselves, because of YHWH, Who is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, Who has chosen you” (Isaiah 49:7),

indicating that redemption will come independent of repentance

Scriptural Exchange #4 - Final Exchange and Resolution - Jeremiah 4:1; Daniel 12:7

R’ Eliezer appeals again to Jeremiah 4:1: “If you will return, Israel, return to Me” (to maintain his conditional view)

אמר לו רבי אליעזר:

והלא כבר נאמר:

״אם תשוב ישראל

נאם ה׳

אלי תשוב״

R’ Eliezer said to him:

But isn’t it already stated:

“If you will return, Israel,

says YHWH,

return to Me” (Jeremiah 4:1),

indicating that redemption is contingent upon repentance

R’ Yehoshua concludes with Daniel 12:7, which describes a fixed eschatological timeline, indicating that repentance is irrelevant to the timing of redemption; R’ Eliezer falls silent (conceding that scriptural evidence supports R’ Yehoshua’s position of inevitable, divinely timed redemption)

אמר לו רבי יהושע:

והלא כבר נאמר:

״ואשמע את האיש לבוש הבדים

אשר ממעל למימי היאר

וירם ימינו ושמאלו אל השמים

וישבע בחי העולם

כי למועד מועדים וחצי

וככלות נפץ יד עם קדש תכלינה

כל אלה וגו׳״

ושתק רבי אליעזר.

R’ Yehoshua said to him:

But isn’t it already stated:

“And I heard the man clothed in linen,

who was above the waters of the river,

when he lifted up his right hand and his left hand to heaven

and swore by the One Who lives forever

that it shall be for a period, periods, and a half;

when the crushing of the power of the holy people shall have been completed,

all these things shall be finished” (Daniel 12:7),

indicating that the time for redemption is set and unrelated to repentance

And R’ Eliezer was silent, unable to refute the proof from that verse.

1. The outline of the series can be found at Part 1.

These are the previous parts:

• Pt1 The Messianic Era in the Talmud: The Character of the Messianic Generation and Moral and Social Collapse in the Leadup to the Messianic Era (Sanhedrin 96b-99a)

• Pt2 The Messianic Era in the Talmud: Calculations of World Duration and Messianic Timing (Sanhedrin 96b-99a)

• Pt3 The Messianic Era in the Talmud: Signs Immediately Preceding the Messiah’s Arrival (Sanhedrin 96b-99a)

• Pt4 The Messianic Era in the Talmud: Fear of the “Birthpangs of Messiah”, the Identity of the Messiah, and the Day of the Lord

• Pt5 The Messianic Era in the Talmud: Duration of the Messianic Era, and the Rewards in the Messianic Era and World-to-Come for the Righteous (Sanhedrin 96b-99a)

2. משני בדיבוריה- literally: “change his speech”.

On the various verbs and terms used for lying in the Talmud, see my piece on stories of deception in the Talmud.

3. בני עלייה - literally: “sons of elevation, elevated people”.

4. Referring to the central decree in the Book of Esther, see the summary in Wikipedia, “Esther 3“:

Haman reacted by a vast plan to destroy not simply Mordecai, but his entire people (3:8), getting the approval from the king to arrange for a particular date of genocide, selected by casting a lot, or pur (one reason for the festival of Purim; Esther 9:24–26) to fall on the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, Adar (3:7, 13).

The chapter ends with the confused reaction of the whole city of Susa due to the decree (verse 15).

On the Talmud’s notion here that Haman’s decree served a purpose by bringing about repentance, compare my “Talmudic Interpretations of the Book of Esther: Esther 3:8-3:11 (Megillah 13b-14a)“, section “The Influence of the King’s Ring (Esther 3:10): Ahasuerus’ act of removing his ring to approve Haman’s decree stirred the people to repentance more powerfully than all the prophets’ warnings“.

5. Compare the somewhat analogous tannaitic dialogue in my “Counting the Letters in the Mishnah: Measuring the Length of All Four Thousand Individual Mishnayot (With analysis of Mishnah Yadayim 4:3)“, section “Second to Longest Mishnah: Debating Tithes in the Seventh Year: Ammon and Moab’s Obligation Settled by Tradition (Mishnah Yadayim 4:3)“, with my visualization there.

As I note there, explaining the reason for long Mishnah sections, in section “Analysis“:

Relatively extensive back-and-forth halachic discussion […] is quite uncommon for the Mishnah, though much more typical in the anonymous sections of the Talmud.

And see also another somewhat analogous tannaitic dialogue (between Rabban Gamliel and R’ Yehoshua), in my appendix here, “Ammonite Convert Case - Halakhic debate over convert’s status (Berakhot 28a #4-8 = Mishnah Yadayim 4:4)“.